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Topic: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ (Read 6129 times)
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davclem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 140
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Hello Wiggy,
Yes it was wet! Pure serendipity that I came across your post- I haven't opened Catherine's file in two years! Planted a tree this morning, came in for coffee and just casually googled catherine for no reason.
I'm doing this from memory, not from my file, just to get the dialogue started and to stimulate your questions, then if necessary I can check what I have.
No, I'm not a descendant- moved here almost 30 years ago, am a local history buff, we lived for 7 years on the property next to Killymoon, and I sort of fell into researching Thomas and then of course Catherine, and the more I found,and it was not easy as you have found, the more facinating it became- their story is an epic of early Colonial history, from Old Bailey to government House, Governors and Bushrangers, it would make a great film, with Meryl Streep in her prime or Cate Blanchett as Catherine!
She claimed to be innocent at her trial in 1806, "as innocent as this babe at my breast", and she had a child with her on the Syndey Cove in 1807. No further trace of the child, She was however reported as having a child by Overhand in the NSW 1814 muster. No record in the 1811 muster as Overhand was away as captain of the Lady Nelson taking Gov Macquarie to VDL for his first tour. In the previous year theNSW Colonial Secretary's records are full of reports of aggro between Overhand and the commandant of Newcastle penal settlement, apparently over catherine , because Macquarie issued a special order for her to be removed from Newcastle and brought to Sydney, where she married Overhand (1810). My belief is that this child might have been Anne, but have no proof, and Catherine was a master(sic) at not being included in records. No other reference to Anne until her marriage, apart from the 1837 comment by bushranger Martin Cash in his "personal narrative" that the "missus" had an adopted daughter.
I don't like Stieglitz, and I think he was a money grubbing opportunist. Go to http//images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au and search for stieglitz. He had to sell out to young Thomas when Catherine died, because Killymoon was old Tom's grant and had been left to Catherine in trust for young Tom. I think young Tom took the Ransom name because he wasn't a Stieglitz, didn't like his stepfather, recognised that his inheritance derived from old Thomas, and wanted to lose his mother's origins for her.
You need to try and obtain a copy of "Martin Cash- his personal narrative as a bushranger in VDL' and check page 20 about his time at killymoon as a dairyman in 1837. Also a wonderful description of Stieglitz chatting up Catherine in the Royal Oak in 1829, in "The Hermit in Van Diemens land"- I don't know whether it is online.
Bryan Overhand was dismissed as Captain of Lady Nelson in 1814 for helping convicts to abscond and signed on the Emu which sank in 1815 in Cape Town. A Captain Benjamin Ormond (same initials) started to arrive in Hobart 1817 and died in Parramatta 1824 aged 40. B aond BO never appeared in the records at the same time. Ormond was in Hobart in March 1820. My theory is that he made contact with Catherine and had a one night stand with his wife,possibly even with knowledge of Thomas, (she never married Thomas), he died in 1824, she didn't know for a number of years until Thomas died, so was free to marry Stieglitz in 1829. Explains all, and keeps her respectable. No trace of Anne in all this though.
I have not yet found out about her pre 1806. Who was Michael McNalty, supposedly her husband, what was her maiden name, where was she born- was she Irish, and was she married to a McNalty's from Armagh where Stieglitz was born (1803). I even theorised as well that Catherine was Thomas's daughter! So there are still plenty of unknowns.
Over to you
David
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Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth, born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820
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regross
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 918
paper doll fashionista
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Hi,
Davclem:
What a wonderful synopsis. She must have been quite an intriguing woman, full of resource and character that I am sure all her descendants have inherited.
Of course one speculates on her early life but researching it may well be impossible.
Wiggy Congratulations on cracking your brickwall.
regards
Robyn
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Abbott, Barnard, Clarke, Inward, Lanfear, Rutter,Spencer: Middlesex;
Greenaway:Cornwall;
Edney, Godwin/Goodwin, Gullett, Hampshire;
Gullett: Devon:
Emms:39th Regiment of Foot 1810-1832
Gordon, Scotland;
Arnold, Morton: Ireland;
Davies:Wales;
Olcorn:Cumberland;
Osborne: Staffordshire;
Harrington: Kent
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Yes, it sure is fascinating You've opened a can of worms and it is all very entertaining! - - - - but if Rupert Murdoch can have children well into his 70s why can't Thomas??  
I want to read all those reports of aggro now! Oh how I wish I'd know about you, just down the road as we drove past!! 
We don't like Von Stieglitz either because the family tale is that he 'stole the family money' to build Killymoon. Is Tyrone in County Armagh - we have Fred. being born in Tyrone - but I thought that meant County Tyrone.
I presume you have seen Thomas Snr's will, where he leaves everything to Catharine (spelt like that in his will) then, at her demise to Thomas. (Nothing of Killymoon there 'Fred.' built it) - - He was to inherit the Royal Oak and Joiner's Arms, and all the land and rents belonging to them. Then we read somewhere, can't remember where, that Thomas Jnr had to buy Killymoon for 30,000 pounds -( and where a post office employee would have that sort of money from is anyone's guess.) Unless his wife's family came to the party!
How did you find out all that about the husbands - two!! She was only 17 when she was transported - how would she have had time to have two husbands?? Fast worker - but you say she wasn't flighty!! And where did you find out the info re the captains and her marriage - I am not doubting you - just really, really interested!  And the trial reports? I really must get into this more! Was Catharine listed under her married name when she came to Tasmania? Why, then, was she always referred to as Catharine/Christina McNally or Mrs/ Widow Ransom after Thomas's death - we knew they'd never married just thought they had a full on de-facto relationship - which is why Thomas had to give up as Licensee of the Joiner's Arm's Inn (he was living in sin - quel horreur) And, when did she go to Norfolk Island? because you said she arrived from Norfolk Island with Thomas.
Anne's last child was born in 1860 so if she'd been born pre 1814 she would have been pretty old to have been still childbearing, at 46+. That's old in those days isn't it??? Alright for the blokes - not so good for the women!! I don't have Anne's marriage certificate - just lists of her many children, and her death - and she would have been about 78. Do you have evidence of her birth in Sydney. I must get back to the libraries and look at the indexes again! The people in Hobart and Launceston were very helpful - but I didn't have enough time at either. Melbourne is closer!
Too many questions - but I am oh so glad to finally find someone who knows something - I knew there must be someone out there who knew a bit about Catharine/Christina.
Thank you so much for sharing what you have - I look forward to the next installment - meantime I will go looking for those references you've suggested.
Wiggy
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Robyn - not sure I've done the cracking - but it is very exciting to have made contact with David! Reckon the cracking goes to David!
Wiggy
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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davclem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 140
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Wiggy,
I will just refresh myself on some of the sources and let you know in half an hour or so- but you will pick up her marriage 1810 to Bryan Overend on the IGI - search Catherine McNalty under South Pacific
David
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Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth, born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have seen that photo of Frederick - and also the entry in Aust Dict of Biog re him too - have you seen that?
Don't suppose you happen if there are any photos of either Catharine or Thomas Snr do you? - or even Thomas Jnr - who is the one you started researching all those years ago!
Wiggy
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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davclem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 140
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Wiggy,
Here we go for starters
1 Google " INDEX TO NSW COLONIL SECRETARYS PAPERS 1788-1825"
click on website URL that comes up
Click on "search and browse..."
Click on 'O"
Scroll down from Ovens John until you come to'Overhand, Bryan"
then read
ditto ORMAN Benjamin
ditto mcanulty
ditto McNally
2IGI at www.familysearch.org
search "Stieglitz, Ireland", will bring up 19 entries,all Freds family NB his sister was called Christina-
3 www.oldbaileyonline.org
Search for Catherine Macnalty 1806, and that will bring up trial report- Age 23
No she never went to Norfolk Island- Thomas did. She was sent to Newcastle , the lime kilns!
David
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Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth, born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820
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davclem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 140
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Wiggy,
Yes,I have a photo of Catherine, very severe, sad, Victorian black silk dress . I am not IT ept, so will have to get a copy made for you, also have one of young Tom, when he has become old Tom himself, on a bycycle- I like him! Will copy.
My email is
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure PM (personal message) system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
if you are willing to give me your address , I can post it to you, but it will take two or three weeks, as i will have to go into Launceston
David
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« Last Edit: Sunday 05 July 09 11:43 UTC (UK) by krisesjoint »
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Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth, born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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In reply 42 you said she came with Thomas from Norfolk Island - or did you mean she arrived in Hobart at the same time??? I'm confused.
I reckon she was confused too. Have you seen young Thomas's baptism record? It says Catharine was unmarried.
The old Bailey record would suggest that she was older than the 68 years that her gravestone says.
She is written up as Christianna on her marriage record - but she has signed herself as Christina. She is one tricky lady. In Old Thom,as's Will she is Catharine Christiana.
Right I'm off to look up those sites you've suggested.
Wiggy
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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the Lady Nelson is that beautiful little square rigged boat in Hobart isn't it - original or repliqua?
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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trish1120
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3435
My Amazing Mother 1912-1982
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Hi Wiggy and David
Well how fascinating 
As I live in Sydney, I will ring St Phillips Church in Sydney/Church of England Archives and see if It is possible to discover what is on the marriage record of Catherine and Bryan.
Cheers,
Trish
EDIT; just found the registers are available at the State Library, unfortunately it may take me some days to get in there.
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All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukCummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND) |
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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David, did you get my PM? Hope so!
Yes Trish you are right - quite fascinating - I hadn't realized what a remarkable story was hidden in all the records!
Wiggy
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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WiggyHobbes08
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 339
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Night thoughts!
Catharine's date of birth in IGI is 2 June 1790. Yet her trial age is 23 in 1806 - these don't add up - I find some of the dates on IGI very suspect - also sus is the fact that Anne and Francis Stieglitz child Selina Ann was born in Ireland according to IGI - that is not correct I don't think - she lived in Tasmania I'm pretty sure. Think I have the right generation - but will go back to search.
Another question - to which you may not know the answer - I have evidence from some historic buildings register that the Joiner's Arms belonging to old Thomas was in Macquarie Street - but I have a newspaper report granting a licence to Joiner's Arms Inn in Murray Street - with a different licensee. I suppose one could have closed, and the name taken by another.
forgotten the rest of my thoughts - I think very well when horizontal!
Wiggy
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Gaunt, Ransom, McNally, Stanfield, Kimberley. (Tasmania Australia)
Brown, Johnstone, Cumming, Cunningham, Crawford, Jack (Dumfriesshire, Lanarkshire, Scotland)
Percy, Dunning, (Devon, England)
Convicts of First/Second Fleet.
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davclem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 140
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Good Morning All
Ok, lets try and answer those questions, and toss in some more tidbits
1 The link with Norfolk Island is Bryan- he was married to Catherine, and he evacuated Thomas from Norfolk Island. Catherine was not on Norfolk. I don't know how they all came together and how the relationship developed, except that Bryan would presumably have known Thomas from his trips there on the Lady Nelson over the previous years. He might have offered him lodgings in Sydney while he waited to go to Hobart. Bryan's life was changing at that time. He was in trouble with Macquarie,He and Catherine may have not been hitting it off, there was a child, Catherine may have taken the chance to go toHobart to muddy her convict trail. I don't know.
2 It is a replica at Hobart
3 Murray St and Macquarie St intersect, the pub was probably on the corner, hence the two addresses? It was also known as the Carpenters Arms in the 1818 Licensee records . I think Thomas sold out, before moving to Cross Marshes I've an auction notice somewhere, but in any event the owner of the pub is not necessarily the licensee
4 I think the 1790 IGI record is a red herring- she was married to a Mc Nal(t)y, not born one. The old Bailey record indicates an older person, by direct statement and by the nature of the offence and her response. Witness describes her as a woman.The "I am as innocent" response really resonates as Irish as well! The discrepancy in date on gravestone? She was very good at blurring and hiding her past( the 1843 and 1848 Census records for Killymoon record her as "free" ( not free by servitude, or in her case free by marriage!)). She doesn't appear in musters. I think she down aged herself to Frederick when he was courting, knocked 5-6 years off her age.
5 Haven't checked the local baptism records for Selina Ann, but no reason why she couldn't have been born in Ireland. Martin Cash autobiog states that Frederick was away from the colony in 1837 and was for 3 Years! Fred couldn't wait to leave after Catherine died in 1857 and go back to Ireland to marry Hesther Blackett and let his new mother in law buy him a Von. Brother Francis and Anne could have gone back to Henry and Charlotte in Ireland to introduce her to the family. Francis lived on "Lewis Hill" on the St Pauls River, near Avoca, named after the home of the Stieglitz in Ireland
Have more , but apparently the rest exceeds permissable 5500 charcters, so will do it in 2 seperate posts
David
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Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth, born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820
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davclem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 140
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6 the Norfolk Island mafia connection was reinforced when Sarah Stanfield , dau of Daniel Stanfield,Corporal of marines on Norfolk and subsequent beef baron of VDL, married young Thomas! She was killed Aug 9 1890 when her horse bolted on St Marys Pass and the carriage overturned.
7 Matthew Brady the making of a Bushranger, by Karl R Von Steiglitz ". "He arrived at Hobart Town four days after Christmas on the convict ship Juliana and was sent to work for Thhomas Ransom. Both Mr and Mrs ransom treated him very well and liked his happy nature and high spirits......" You have to wonder about Catherine's liking for convicts and bushrangers, well Thomas's as well- "100 Australian Bushrangers 1789-1901 by Allan M Nixon " Obviously Brady had plentyof contacts...On 14 April 1825 Arthur issued a proclamationin which he offered 20 gallons of rum for the capture of Brady and McCabe. On 20 April Brady suddenly appeared at the Royal Oak Hotel at the Cross Marshs, fastened a notice to the doorway and gallopedoff again the locals were amazed to read ' It has caused matthew Brady much concern that such a person known as Sir george Arthur is at large. Twenty gallons of rum will be given to any person that will deliver this person unto me.i also caution John Priest that I will hang him for his ill-treatment of Mrs Blackwell at Newtown" {attaboy, Matt}
8 Journal froma Journal of T Scott in the suite of his Excellency Lieut Col Governor Arthur during an excursion to the NW Quarter of VDJ 1829 "Jan 9th Friday at 1pm His Excellency left Hobart Town . The day being wet and the roads heavy for travelling, the party reached Mrs Ransome's Inn at the Cross Marsh at 8 o'clock in the evening- 29miles from town" Thiswas the year Thomas died. The inn was called the Royal Oak, it still stands in much its original form.Cross Marsh is now called Kempton. As far as I can work out Thomas is actually buiried under the Midland Highway which passes over what was part of the cemetery at the time, but I am not sure!
9 Is the IGI record of a marriage of a Thomas Ransom to Elizabeth Durrell 8 June 1778 at St Leonards Shoreditch, our Thomas- don't know , except dates place and names fit, but that way lies madness!
10 The Aboriginal /Settler Clash in VDL 1803-1831 N J B Plomley
December 1827 Shannon River Mrs Ransome Hut plundered, tea, sugar, knives stolen
19 March 1828 Clyde River region Mrs ransome and 2 servants, came upon some natives making spears who fled when fired upon
11 Novemeber1828 Shannon Mrs Ramsome Hut plundered
9 November 1830 Stieglitz Dysart Parish Hut plundered
11 Diary of Robert William Von Stieglitz 1875-76
includes reminiscences of his time in VDL1833-36
"my brother Frederick lived 36 miles from Francis and I remember how delighted I was to see his house at Killymoon. One reason was he kept splendid horses and took delight in putting any young fellow on them so much the better if they ran away with them, but he did not care how much you knocked them about over logs and fences" [I rest my case- the man was despicable DWC)
David
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Juler- NWNorfolk , Thomas/Alice ,pre 1800,
Clement-Durham, Eng,pre 1800
Holroyd, Staffordshire, pre 1750
Amelia Wyatt/Cole/Booth, born Surrey ,abt 1821
John Wentworth who married Sarah Holmes, Carshalton,pre 1785
John Frith married Ann, Yorkshire/pre 1770, Settrington?
Alice Miles married Holkham Norfolk to Juler about 1745
Thomas Sanders , Buckland 1700s
Richard Adams , tailor , Lambeth ,about 1780-1830
Earliest reference to Break O'Day Plains, Eastern Tasmania, before 1820
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