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Topic: help mystery joseph how do I trace him (Read 3335 times)
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10217
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You can take the risk on ordering a Joseph Smith birth certificate
September Quarter 1898 Worcester Volume 6c page 302
If you order from the GRO you can stipulate that the father's name must be William. That way if it isn't you don't get the certificate and they charge you a search fee which is about half the price of the certificate.
Even if the father's name is William (and hopefully the mother is Fanny) it doesn't prove that this is the right Joseph but it may help if the occupation is similar to that given on your Joseph's marriage certificate.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10217
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In the end the 1911 census might help confirm it further by showing a Joseph with a father William with the right occupation in Worcester. The 1911 census however will not be released until 2012.
In the meantime does anyone still alive in your family remember whether your grandfather had any siblings?
For information on the Worcester workhouse you need to look at this website
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Worcester/Worcester.shtml
The Guardian's minutes - records held at Worcester record Office might just mention the names of some people employed at the workhouse, though I don't know that that will help any in placing William.
1891 census RG12 2325 folio 45
19 Bridge Street All Saints Worcestershire
Redding, Samuel Joseph 37 Worcestershire, Head Married plumber
Redding, Fanny 34 Worcestershire, Wife Married
Redding, Evelyn Sarah 12 Worcestershire, Daughter
Redding, Winifred Mary 11 Worcestershire, Daughter
Redding, George Ravenscroft 9 Worcestershire, Son
Holland, Fanny 21 Worcestershire, Cousin
Fanny Redding's maiden name was Ravenscroft. I have no idea how this Fanny Holland was connected to the Reddings and or Ravenscrofts, but unless she turns out to be your great grandmother it won't much matter. There is no evidence as yet that this Fanny is the same Fanny in 1901 who is married to a Smith.
1871 census RG10 3049 folio 24
33 York Place Tything of Whistones Worcestershire
John R Smith 23 Worcestershire, Head Married Hosier's assistant (on later censuses the R stands for Richard)
Alice Smith 20 Worcestershire, Wife Married
Alfred Holland 16 Worcestershire, Brother-in-law Tailor
Clara J Holland 10 Worcestershire, Sister-in-law
Laura Holland 8 Worcestershire, Sister-in-law
John Holland 32 Worcestershire, Visitor Head Married Grocer
Eliza A Holland 31 Worcestershire, Visitor Wife, Married
Fanny Holland 2 Worcestershire, Visitor Daughter
------- (son) Holland under 1 mth Worcestershire, Visitor son
Fanny Griffiths 17 Worcestershire, Visitor
Alice's maiden name was Holland. She and John Richard Smith went onto have two children Charles Frederick born circa 1872 and Alice Maud born circa 1883, both born Worcester.
This Fanny Holland of course might not be the same as the Fanny with the Reddings etc. (though these are the only one of this age in Worcestershire) and the Smith connection could just be coincidental since sooner or later with such a common surname every family will get some connection with a Smith.
The only Fanny Holland of the right age on the 1881 census in Worcestershire is this one. There is no evidence that this is the same family other than some of the names and ages are similar.
RG11 2919 folio 89
Poolend St, Great Malvern, Worcestershire
John Holland 44 Buckinghamshire, Head Married Gardener
Eliza Holland 43 Kings Pyon, Hereford, Wife Married (on the 1891 census she is a widow in Malvern aged 53 born Dudley Staffordshire, still born Dudley in 1901)
Fanny Holland 10 Malvern, Worcestershire, Daughter
Mary A. Holland 8 Malvern, Worcestershire, Daughter
Emila Holland 6 Malvern, Worcestershire, Daughter
Lily L. Holland 4 Malvern, Worcestershire, Daughter
Leonard Holland 2 Malvern, Worcestershire, Son
It gets worse if you go to the 1861 census with places of birth and occupations
RG9 2108 folio 94
Rose Cottage Chesnut Walk Claines Worcestershire
John Holland 21 St Nicholas, Worcestershire, Head Married Coach trimmer
Eliza A Holland 20 Claines, Worcestershire, Wife Married
Frederic Holland 1 Claines, Worcestershire, Son
John Holland 5mths Claines, Worcestershire, Son
Jane Amphlett 13 Claines, Worcestershire, House Servant
In 1858 in Evesham registration district a John Holland married an Eliza Ann Griffiths (in 1871 a Fanny Griffiths was staying with John Holland, she is with her family in 1861 in Claines - with them is James Amphlett nephew)
Next door to John Holland in 1861 is a Griffiths family but no Fanny and a further door away are
James Holland 66 Worcester City Married Retired builder
Elizabeth Holland 62 Worcester City Married
Sarah Holland 25 Worcester City Daughter
Charles 13 Worcester City Grandson
Trying to work out whether all these censuses are the same family would take Fanny's birth certificate for her mother's maiden and her marriage certificate to prove it was Fanny Holland who married William Smith and had a father called John. So really only worth untangling if there seems any evidence that it is worth doing so and you are some way off that. Otherwise untangling all these Hollands is really somebody's else's problem.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10217
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One step at a time. It looks from the workhouse records that the DOB July 1898 confirms that it is the right birth certificate to order as July is in September quarter.
Once you have the information about the parents from the birth certificate - particularly the mother's maiden name, as well as her first name it will help confirm whether anything so far from the censuses fits with the birth information - mother's name, address etc.
A decision can then be made where to go next dependent on that birth information. If it fits with the census information or if it doesn't fit will effect the way to go.
Really good information from the workhouse records - that really exceeded my expectations.
Regards
Valda
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6033
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Hi Jacqui
I can only find the Joseph Smith already found  Searched for the address but although Angel Row exists no number 12  I hope someone else has better luck.
Jan 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6033
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As Bull Walk is very near Angel Row then the Joseph there with mother Fanny may well be yours - she could be Mary known as Fanny, perhaps a Mary Frances 
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6033
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Found this
Marriage
1891 March qtr Mary Ann Townsend with William Smith on same page
Worcester Vol4c Pg411
I think a Mary Ann could well be known as Fanny. Now we need to track her in previous censuses. And where is William in 1901 if we're on the right lines?
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6033
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In 1881 I've been unable to find a Mary or Mary Ann Townsend born Worcester around the right time. There is a Fanny Townsend but she is born 1865 in Brewood Staffs but living in Worcester with Charles and Kate Gibbs listed as wife's sister 
In 1891 there is a Fanny Smith born 1870 Worcester and living in Worcester but need SKS to check the image to see if she is with a William a scaffolder- no Mary or Mary Ann Smith born Worcester in 1891 that I can see.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6033
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Hi
The marriage was in 1891 not 98. So she would have been married - would expect more children older than Joseph but they might have died.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6033
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Now 1871
No Mary or Mary Ann, only Fanny is born 1857 Worcester living Staffordshire If this is the same lady (and haven't found another but someone else might) then she is confused about age and birthplace - need images checking for mistranscriptions and family details- anyone around who could do that please?
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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