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Topic: Can you help me break down my brickwall (Read 744 times)
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 524
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I am looking for any reference to Peter and Hellen (nee Duncanson) Morrison on the 1871 census. They married in Stirling in 1870 both living at 16 Low Castle Hill but I can't find them on the census the following year. I have even looked at the whole of Scotland in case they had moved. On the 1881 they are living at Bannockburn. Peter was a quarry labourer.
On their marriage certificate Peter's father is called Peter, a quarryman(deceased) and his mother Margaret (nee Morison). I cannot find any reference to either Peter and Margaret or Peter the son in the records and I don't know where to look next. It has cost me a fortune to find out precisely nothing about this family and I have run out of ideas. Does anyone know where I could find them? 
Regards
Margaret
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LindsaySiam
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 488
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Couldn't find a Peter Morrison living in Bannockburn, do you mean this couple?
Living at Steins Square, St Ninians in 1881
Peter Morrison, aged 34, a labourer, born in Bannockburn
Helen, aged 28, born in Stirling
and their 3 children
Peter aged 6, born in Glasgow
Thomas aged 3, born in Glasgow
William aged 11 months, born in Bannockburn
Living next door in Steins Square was a Margaret Morrison, Housekeeper (aged 74 in 1881) born Bannockburn. She is show with U for unmarried - presume she could also have been a widow? but I couln't find her death cert in St. Ninians so don't know if she was related.
As you know, Peter Morison married Hellen Duncanson on 04 Nov 1870 in Stirling, their son Peter was born 18 Aug 1874, High Church, Glasgow. According to his birth certificate they were living at 395, Gallowgate, Glasgow in 1874 so timeline would be:
1870 married in Stirling
1874 living in Glasgow
1880 child born Bannockburn
1881 living in St. Ninians
1883 - 1891 living in Bannockburn (see below)
but I couldn't find them in the 1871 either, also went through the 1861 matching up father and son called Peter - there were 3 or 4 but none with the right occupations or birthplace. Couldn't find a death cert for Peter senior either or Margaret Morrison m/s Morison, nor record in IGI of birth of either Peter junior or Hellen.
I did find Helen aged 37, Head and Married in the 1891 living in Bannockburn with sons
Thomas aged 13, born Glasgow
William aged 10, born Bannockburn
Joseph aged 8, born Bannockburn
No idea where the 2 Peters were, there may have been more children also as this was the last entry on the page but I ran out of credits so didn't look at the next page ...
Sorry, it is not more helpful, do you have death certs for Peter or Margaret Morrison?
Lindsay
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MORRISON - Dunbartonshire, Stirlingshire
STIRLING - Stirlingshire
LINDSAY - Perthshire
MELDRUM - Fife, Angus
GIBSON - Lanarkshire
HEWITT - Wigtownshire, Lanarkshire
MEIKLE - Dunbartonshire
All census information Crown Copyright
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 524
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Hi Lindsay
Thank you so much for going to all that trouble and cost. William was my grandfather and I have his birth certificate and his parents marriage certificate.
I just don't understand why I can't find Peter and his parents on any of the census or parish records it just seems a little odd to me. I thought I would be able to identify at least one of them. I wonder if the Margaret Morrison on the 1881 census was his mother? Cor! I thought this side of my family would be easier to trace than the other and they are both proving difficult. My husbands paternal name is Smith and I have managed to get back to 1780 for them and 1720 on his maternal side!!!
Are there any other records that I could access which may pinpoint Peter and his parents?
If you have any ideas please let me know. Once again thanks for all your hard work I really appreciate it.
Margaret
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LindsaySiam
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 488
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Hello Margaret, yes I wondered about the Margaret next door, i.e. was she the mother?
We may be able to find them on the 1851 (hopefully!!) when it comes out which according to SP should be this month or very soon thereafter. I had a look on Freecen also but no trace.
Like you I am amazed, started about 7.30 my time this morning, thought 'Oh this will be easy ...' by 11.30 knew it wouldn't be  Yours are unbelievable, I am completely stuck with my Morrisons (my main line) about 1800 but this is even worse because it is so much more recent. At the moment I have no ideas but I haven't given up, I will try again, they can't have just disappeared.
Curious that the two Peters were absent from home in 1891, I will have another look tomorrow as to where they might have been.
regards,
Lindsay Morrison
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MORRISON - Dunbartonshire, Stirlingshire
STIRLING - Stirlingshire
LINDSAY - Perthshire
MELDRUM - Fife, Angus
GIBSON - Lanarkshire
HEWITT - Wigtownshire, Lanarkshire
MEIKLE - Dunbartonshire
All census information Crown Copyright
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 524
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Lindsey
You are an angel. I am always helping people out with their ancestry because I can't find anything on both sides of my family and it's lovely to know that someone is trying to help me.
The strange thing about this family is that from what I have found out about my grandfather William (he died before I was born) he was, how can I put it, a little conservative with the truth. On his marriage certificate he gives his age as 29 when he was 37!!! He married in Stirling but his first wife died and he left his 3 children with his wife's sister and apart fom paying some maintenence from his Air Force Pension from the First World War I don't think he had anything to do with them after he married my grandmother. His son was also called Peter.
So now you know as much as I do about my Morrison family.
Thanks once again.
Margaret
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LindsaySiam
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 488
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Hi Margaret, I had something similar with one of my ggrandfathers, the family said 'oh he died young'. Not so, when he married my ggrandmother - she was aged 24, he was really 46 but his age suddenly dropped by 10 years on the mc and you could see him getting younger on every census. I am convinced that she didn't know
Had another look this morning and we got lucky! Not with the 1871 unfortunately but ..
Helen Morrison, widow of Peter Morrison, Pit Labourer died 22nd June 1916, 7hr 45m PM at Asylum Larbert. Usual residence, 88 Main Street, St. Ninians. Daughter of Thomas Duncanson (Butcher Master) deceased and Sarah Henderson (Hawker) deceased. (Came across Larbert Asylum recently when helping someone with another Morrison that also died there - think it was used as a hospital also).
She died of Exhaustion from Acute M? Death registered by Thomas Morrison, son of 1, Weaver Row, St. Ninians.
DC says that she was 59 (1857) I am sure that I found an LDS submission yesterday for an Hellen born 1857 that fit but I discounted it because it would have made her only 13 at time of marriage not the 19 stated on the marriage cert .. who knows, maybe marriage cert was incorrect. I have looked again for the LDS entry but can't find it today.
So back to Peter, now that we know he died after 1881 and before 1916 and probably in Stirlingshire, there were only 2 - one, in St. Ninians and one in Larbert so was quite easy (finally!!)
Peter Morrison, Pit Labourer married to Helen Duncanson died 1st January 1907 at 1hr 30m AM at 64, Main Street, St. Ninians. (Usual Residence - 88, Main Street, St. Ninians) aged 57. Son of Peter Morrison (Quarryman) deceased and Margaret Morrison (Housekeeper - Bingo! well, maybe ) deceased. He died of heart failure, death registered by his son, Thomas Morrison, present of 51, Main Street, St. Ninians.
I haven't found Margaret's dc as yet.
regards,
Lindsay
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MORRISON - Dunbartonshire, Stirlingshire
STIRLING - Stirlingshire
LINDSAY - Perthshire
MELDRUM - Fife, Angus
GIBSON - Lanarkshire
HEWITT - Wigtownshire, Lanarkshire
MEIKLE - Dunbartonshire
All census information Crown Copyright
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LindsaySiam
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 488
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Still no sign of Margaret's death cert but there was another son for Peter and Helen, James aged 6 in 1891 who was born in Bannockburn. Address looks like Quakerfield, Bannockburn.
In 1871, there is a Margaret Morrison shown as Housekeeper and a widow living alone at Glasgow Road, St Ninians, born St Ninians and aged 71. I think this might be her, St. Ninians is close enough to Bannockburn ... although the 1881 says she was 74.
Interestingly enough .. remember on the 1881, she is shown as living with a boarder, Alexander Russell aged 73, there is a Margaret Morrison on the 1891 census for St. Ninians living with her daughter, Elizabeth Russell although I think this is just coincidence, both Margaret and Elizabeth are shown as being born in Kirkintilloch and the age for Margaret is again 70's.
Yes! ... found it, Margaret's death cert in Bannockburn at Quakerfield, she died 9th June 1889 aged 85, death registered by her grandson Malcolm McGregor, present (must have been a daughter somewhere for Peter and Hellen, think Peter was Margaret's only child). I'll let you have this cert as well.
Margaret's parents were William Morrison and Sophia Elder and she was christened 22nd September 1804 in St. Ninians according to the IGI.
I don't want to spoil your fun, so I will stop now, unless you ask for more help but William and Sophia had at least 6 other children - plenty on them in the IGI plus a large Pedigree Resource File.
regards,
Lindsay
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MORRISON - Dunbartonshire, Stirlingshire
STIRLING - Stirlingshire
LINDSAY - Perthshire
MELDRUM - Fife, Angus
GIBSON - Lanarkshire
HEWITT - Wigtownshire, Lanarkshire
MEIKLE - Dunbartonshire
All census information Crown Copyright
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 524
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Lindsey
What can I say? I am shocked at what you have found.  So much information in such a short time. Thank you so much. I always tell people that I am helping exactly the same as you have told me. I won't spoil it for them but I will always help them out if needs be.
I know now I am doing something wrong when I try and get information from Scotlands People. It's funny really that you say Peter may have been illegitimate because although I hadn't considered it it appears logical when you consider that there is no evidence of a marriage between a Peter and Margaret Morrison.
How do I send a personal reply so that I can give you my email address? If you let me know I will send it to you later.
Thanks once again.
Regards
Margaret 
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4448
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Hi Margaret
I thought I would post this info here to keep all your Morrison threads together - continued from this more recent post http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,282351.0.html
Just picking up on Lindsay's findings and her last comment....so who was Malcolm McGregor who shows as grandson to Margaret Morrison when reporting her death?....
Well, he wasn't the grandson - it was his wife Janet STEVENSON who was
It took a while to figure out. I had seen the child Margaret who showed with Margaret mother in the 1841 and with Peter in 1851:
1841:
William Morrison 60
Sophia Morrison 55
James Morrison 30
Margrate Robertson 4
Address: New Market, St Ninians
1851:
William Morrison 74
Sophia Morrison 70
James Morrison 46
Thomas Morrison 34
John Morrison 30
Margaret Morrison 40, daughter, b. Hand Loom Weaver (tartan), b. St Ninians
Margaret Morrison 14, Grandaughter, Peicer (wool Mill), b. St Ninians
Peter Morrison 7, Grandson, b. St Ninians
Archibald 2
Address: New Market, Bannockburn, St Ninians
Daughter Margaret Robertson/Morrison looks to have married a Robert STEVENSON:
ROBERT STEVENSON (Coal miner) Marriages:Spouse: MARGARET ROBERTSON
Marriage: 22 JAN 1860 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
Sadly, SP seems to have eaten the cert...it's just not there - frustrating or what  . I have found Margaret Robertson/Morrison's death but father's details were blank (I was hoping maybe for a connection to Peter's father unfortunately without the marriage cert to view/confirm by the time it got to her death nobody knew this info).
She went on to have the following children:
1. MARGARET STEVENSON Birth: 12 APR 1860 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
2. JANET STEVENSON Birth: 20 SEP 1861 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
3. ELIZABETH STEVENSON Birth: 21 FEB 1863 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
4. MARY STEVENSON Birth: 07 OCT 1864 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
5. JOHN STEVENSON Birth: 13 APR 1866 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
6. ROBERT STEVENSON Birth: 29 DEC 1867 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
7. SOPHIA STEVENSONBirth: 20 OCT 1869 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
8. JANE STEVENSON Birth: 15 MAY 1871 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
9. WILLIAM STEVENSON Birth: 26 DEC 1874 Saint Ninians, Stirling, Scotland
The family are in Crossmuir, St Ninians in 1871. I think Robert Snr. died between censuses and by 1881 Margaret and children are in Quakerfield, Bannockburn.
Daughter Janet went on to marry Malcolm McGregor, a coal miner b in Port Glasgow Renfrewshire c. 1859 (not that I can find that on IGI) in 1887 and they were living in New Market St Ninians in 1891 with the first of their two children.
1887 MCGREGOR MALCOLM STEVENSON JANET BANNOCKBURN /STIRLING 488/02 0015
Margaret Robertson/Morrison/Stevenson died in 1907:
1904 STEVENSON MARGARET MORRISON 67 BANNOCKBURN /STIRLING 488/02 0080
Well, Margaret, at least that is one more Morrison mystery that is clearer
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire.
Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll.
Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire.
Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan.
McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland.
Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland.
..........and lots of Spanish name interests........
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 524
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Hi Monica
I can clearly see that it looks like the right family. Now to the anomaly in my records. For some reason my records now don't make sense. I have Sophia Elder marrying William Morrison 4th July 1802 (correct) and Sophia Elder's parents as James Elder and Elizabeth Cowen (wrong)? I know it's wrong because on the IGI they don't have a daughter called Sophia but I can't think where I found the information.
To make matters even more complicated the only death I can find for a Sophia Morrison is in 1858 in St Ninians age 80, there is no mention of marital status. Her parents were William Elder a farmer and ? Wardie. It doesn't give a reason for death and the informant looks like James McCallum grandson so it looks like I am at a dead end again. I have looked for Sophia's birth and her parents marriage but there is nothing.
As I don't know where she was born it looks like another dead end. Oh! No! not the dreaded Irish line. Please NO!!!! 
Regards
Margaret 
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4448
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Hi Margaret
Like you I cannot see a likely birth for Sophia in St Ninians (she shows a born in the county in 1841 and St Ninians in 1851 c. 1780). I can't find her in 1861, so that death entry in 1858 looks likely.
The are only two couples I can find on the OPRs having children in the right time frame with father William Elder. One is married to a Margaret Mitchel and the other to a Janet Miller (this couple had their children in St Ninians).
Any clues from the names of William and Sophia's children (and order)? Do you have the names for William Morrison's parents?
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire.
Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll.
Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire.
Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan.
McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland.
Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland.
..........and lots of Spanish name interests........
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 524
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Hi Monica
From the IGI their children were:
William born 1802
Margaret 1804
James 1805
Mary 1808
Thomas 1817
John 1821
Jean 1821
All born New Market, St Ninian's
I am not sure about the last 3 as there seems to be too big an age gap between Mary's birth and Thomas's.
Have found the link between Sophia and grandson James born 1832 in Bannockburn. Mary Morrison married Malcolm McCallum. So it is the right death record.
I think William's father was called James who married Mary Smith 1774 at Kennar, Stirling.
Regards
Margaret
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4448
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I know naming pattern is not binding, but looking at the list of children for William and Sophia, you would think her parents were called William and Margaret, with James and Mary for William. Hard to be definitive though isn't it 
Wardie seems to be a relatively uncommon name. Only 14 entries in Stirling under that name for example.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire.
Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll.
Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire.
Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan.
McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland.
Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland.
..........and lots of Spanish name interests........
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
Offline
Posts: 524
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Hi Monica
I have looked for the Wardie name and like you I can find a few in Stirlingshire but any information is scant on any web-site I look on. I will plod on with the search and I am determined to find them.
Thinking about William Elder on Sophia's death certificate it states he was a farmer so does that mean that he would have lived around St Ninian's/Stirling? Are there any tithe maps I could access? Maybe I am looking in the wrong place. I am not too hot on Scottish history so I haven't managed to get a picture of what the town was like around 1770-1800. Was it commercial/industrial/military/agricultural based? I will google for information.
Regards
Margaret
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