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Topic: Earl family in Clifton area (Read 692 times)
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B.E.
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Posts: 127
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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It appears that there was a thriving community of Earls in and around the Clifton area in the 19th century. I'm particularly interested in William (b.1828?) and Ann Earl who moved to Long Eaton, Derbyshire with their son William (b.1865?) sometime between 1871 and 1881. They also had a daughter Martha Ann (b.1853?) who married James Page of Grownus. I believe William Junior was my great-grandfather.
I'd appreciate any help anyone could give me in this area - I'm pretty sure I've got the right people, but there are some date discrepancies that are making me a bit nervous.
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B.E.
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 127
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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John,
I thought I'd amuse you (?)with a story from genesreunited. My brother has made contact with an Aussie who is working in the same lineage - about 5 generations back. By switching between paternal and maternal lines, we can now (apparently) trace our roots back down one strand to King Edward I, down another to one Heytr Garsson (b.570) and down another via Charlemagne to some bod in 25BC (72 generations). And here I am still trying to authenticate the link back in the mid-1800s!! The other question, of course, is where it all went wrong and we ended up in a hovel in Long Eaton, Derbyshire!!
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bedfordshire boy
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There is probably some sort of negative correlation between those who get back to Charlemagne and those who are trying to authenticate linkages in the mid 1800s!
Your brother would be well advised to beware of Greeks bearing gifts! The Aussie has also conveniently overlooked the burial 20 years prior to his alleged marriage of the individual who links your Earls/Roberts to the line that goes back to Charlemagne - I think on reflection that you may access it earlier through the Earl/Turner link although this has a questionable connection (another, connected, Earl line also definitely links to that Charlemagne line though). The other problem with GeRe is that details of living people, including yours, which are included in trees can very easily turn up on websites accessible to the world - me and my kids ended up on an Aussie's tree. (I'm ever so slightly paranoid about my details being available to the world!!! I've met a victim of identity theft in the USA. Not an experience to be recommended.). I now never give details to anyone, no matter how much I trust them, which include living people.
But to return to reality:
neither you nor your brother appear to have traced the marriage of William born c 1828 to Ann, who John has implied may well have been Ann Bland.
In 1851
HO107/1753 folio 439A
Clifton Fields, Clifton
Absolom Foster head widower 72 tanner b Biggleswade
George Foster son marr 46 ag lab b Tempsford Beds
Sarah Foster dau in law 48 b Clifton
Grandchildren William 13; Daniel 10; Mary 7 all b Clifton
Harriett Foster dau unmarr 42 straw plaiter b Tempsford
Ann Bland Granddau unm 22 plaiter b Clifton
Ellen Sarah Bland grand dau 4 b Clifton
Absolom (which I believe was the middle name of your gt grandfather) also had another daughter Sarah who married Thomas Bland.
In 1851 William was shown as aged 20 born Shefford living with parents Thomas and Rebecca - he possibly added a year or two to his age when he married Ann to cover that he was younger than her.
There's a marriage in the June quarter 1852 in Biggleswade registration district where both William Earl and Ann Bland have reference Vol 3b page 582, so it's beginning to look fairly conclusive
The census progression also looks pretty convincing, linking Long Eaton to Clifton via Southill. What date aspect was troubling you?
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« Last Edit: Saturday 18 February 06 17:26 GMT (UK) by bedfordshire boy »
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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B.E.
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 127
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Bedfordshire Boy,
I hear what you're saying about the identity fraud bit. It's kind of hard to stop your details appearing somewhere on a website, genealogical or not. I ran a website for our cricket club and got all sort of dodgy emails from all parts of the world...
Thanks for the extra information - you're right that Ann Bland has been missed by everybody, so your input is a valuable addition (it might explain the Absalom/Absolom/Absolent link as well - they weren't terribly imaginative with names back then, were they!). I expect she was descended from Robin Hood!! I'm leaving my brother to piddle around with the tree way back - I'll concentrate on sober realities that I actually find much more satisfying anyway.
My concern about the dates was William Absalom Earl claiming to have been born at any time between 1859 and 1865. Neil Leveritt also had both a William Absalom AND a William as brothers in the same household, which I'm assuming is a typo, but...
Cheers,
Brian
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bedfordshire boy
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Hi Brian
There's a birth of William Absolom Earl in Biggleswade registration district in the Dec quarter 1865, which fits with the 1871 that John found - and of course there was no second William born 1870 showing. His age in 1881 is almost indecipherable but on balance I think it's 17! By 1891 it was up to 28 (trying to close the gap with his wife?) and by 1901 he'd overtaken her! I've found that the age in the census nearest the birth is often the most reliable, particularly where there is a big family with only a year or so between them.
No way could Ann Bland have been descended from Robin Hood, when she was actually Maid Marian's great granddaughter. Perhaps Ned Kelly was Ellen Bland's father?
I would be petrified if I thought that my birth and marriage details, those of my kids, and my mother's maiden name could be made available on the internet! But perhaps that's me.
Regards
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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octochamp
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello everyone - I'm BE's brother - the one who's been tracing the family back to Noggin the Nog and Priam of Troy. (not!)
I've just joined rootschat so am a bit late on the scene. What fascinates me is the certainty with which Bedfordshire boy pours doubt on certain links in the chain. I may be being a bit thick - but how can you access the tree to see where the links are going - or is it my Australian friend's tree that you can somehow access?
Please give me a clue as to where you have spotted the discrepancy/ break in the tree - and also where you think there is an authentic line running back to Charlie himself in the eighth century. It'd save me a heck of a lot of work!
Thanks for the useful info so far - Ann Bland was a great bit of sleuthing.
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octochamp
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Bedforshire Boy, I've just had another look over my tree and it is through the Earl/Turner line rather than the Earl/Roberts line that I have made the longest links.
The problem link for me is a link between a John Green born about 1445 and Sir Thomas Green born 1421. The Aussie link has them as father-son, but I can't find any corroboration elsewhere. Is this your discrepancy?
Sorry I didn't sign off properly last time (I didn't know whether you were supposed to be so friendly!)
Cheers,
Stuart
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octochamp
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Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello again!
The Mormons have records of an Absalom Foster baptised in Biggleswade on 05/11/1777, the child of John and Susan Foster. Further investigations shows that John was born in Biggleswade about 1738 and buried in Biggleswade on 18/07/1802, and that Susan was born about 1742 in Biggleswade and buried there on 12/04/1811.
Has anyone got any way of verifying any of this?
Is it just that poor old Absalom couldn't add up on the 1851 census as to how old he was...?
Cheers,
Stuart
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bedfordshire boy
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Hi Stuart
No certainty; just doubt! I'm not sure that pre 1837 there is ever 100% certainty, it's just that some connections are less certain than others.
The Earl/Roberts link to the Clifton/Henlow Cooper line I have grave doubts about.
Fact: Thomas Cooper married Ann Cook in 1765. One researcher has this Thomas as being baptised in 1722 in Clifton, the son of William & Ann, apparently overlooking two burial entries:
Thomas Cooper son of William in March 1736/7. The son of detail usually implies that the burial is of a minor. There were no other William Coopers in Clifton at that time, and no other Thomas's. If it wasn't the Thomas chr 1722 then who was it as there is no other Thomas in Clifton that it could have been?
Thomas Cooper age 70 buried in Clifton 1815. Again there were no other Thomas's in Clifton, so I can but assume that this was the widower of Ann Cook. An implied birth date of c1745 fits much better with a marriage in 1765.
There is no obvious Thomas on the IGI born c1745, but it is much easier to prove who someone isn't than to prove who someone is (there was another Cooper, Henry, who turned up in Clifton in c1782. He was from Biggleswade, and I wonder if he may have been connected with Thomas)
The Earl/Turner connection to the Coopers
Mary Turner married John Earl in Bedford in 1721. I cannot see any baptisms of children to this couple. Perhaps they were non-conformist, I don't know as I haven't researched them. John was buried in 1765 but I can't find a burial for Mary.
Thomas Earl married Ann Tingey in 1770 and was buried in Clifton in 1831 age 82, implying a birth year of c 1749.
I think it's a big leap of faith to apply Thomas as being the son of John and Mary, unless you have some other form of corroboration such as a will. Even then Mary would have been over 50 when she had Thomas (assuming she was still alive) which whilst not impossible does make me wonder.
Your other Earl connection to the Coopers via Daisy is not in dispute (other than a couple of missing baptisms in the 1600s which are covered by wills and hearth tax returns)
Whilst you're on, you may be able to clear up a gap in my tree. You have Thomas Cooper b c 1626 (one of these missing baptisms to which I referred - incomplete Henlow parish register) as marrying Mary Haggisse, his cousin. I thought she married Thomas Samme in 1652 at Henlow, per the parish register. I can trace no marriage of Thomas, although his wife was Mary, as the register is seriously deficient 1642-50, with no Bishops Transcript. Can you shed any light on this?
As for the older Cooper ancestry I have seen trees produced by apparently thorough researchers in the USA which go back to Cuthwulf in 580. Until I have time to go through them they're filed in the Fiction section of my bookcase.
I haven't researched the Green line further back than 1445 with John. An article in the American Genealogist by Robert Leigh Ward suggested (nothing stronger) that John Green might have been the second son of Sir Thomas Greene, and it was worthy of further research. Assuming this link can be made where does this line take us? I haven't looked at it at all.
If you send me a Personal Message with your email address I'll send you the report which is on my Fiction shelf. (just click on my name and one of the options is send a personal message)
Regards
BB
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« Last Edit: Sunday 19 February 06 19:06 GMT (UK) by bedfordshire boy »
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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octochamp
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Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for your long and detailed reply. I fear I can't give much to you in response. On the Thomas Cooper marriage, I have no evidence - just a steal from (I suspect) the Leveritt tree on Genes Reunited. So your records may well be more authentic.
With regard to your lengthy discussion of missed burials, this isn't part of my tree, the last Thomas Cooper I have born in Henley is the 1626 one.
With regard to the Mary Turner/ John Earl/Thomas Earl conundrum, I have the same burial date for Thomas Earl, but have his age recorded as 86, which would give a birth year of 1745, making Mary only 49... Not impossible. Stretching probability, but no more than that.
Thanks for the info on John Green - that makes me more confident.
The tree goes like this:
1. Stuart Earl 1959 whose father was
2. Gordon John Earl 1929 whose father was
3. Walter John Earl 1884 whose father was
4. William Absalom Earl 1865 whose father was
5. William Earl 1830 whose father was
6. Thomas Earl 1806 whose father was
7. George Earl 1782 whose father was
8. Thomas Earl 1745 whose father was
9. John Earl 1698 who married Mary Turner (b. 1696), whose father was
10. John Turner 1650 who married Elizabeth Cooper (b. 1654), whose father was
11. Thomas Cooper 1626 whose father was
12. Benjamin Cooper 1575 whose father was
13. Edmund Cooper 1542 whose father was
14. Michael Cooper  ? who married Elizabeth Page (b. 1515), whose father was
15. Robert Page 1477 who married Cicely Green (b. 1472), whose father was
16. John Green 1445 whose father was
17. Thomas Greene 1421 whose father was
18. Thomas Greene 1400 whose father was
19. Thomas Greene 1369 whose father was
20. Thomas de Greene 1345 whose father was
21. Henry Greene 1310 whose father was
22. Thomas de Greene 1292 who married Lucy la Zouche (b. 1292), whose father was
23. Eudo la Zouche 1244 who married Millicent de Cantelupe (b. 1250) whose father was
24. William de Cantelupe 1215 whose father was
25. William de Cantelupe 1168 who married Millicent Gournay (b. 1170), whose father was
26. Hugh Gournay 1140 whose father was
27. Hugues de Gournay 1100 whose father was
28. Gerard Gournay 1075 who married Edith de Warren (?), whose father was
29. William de Warren 1040 whose father was
30. Ralph de Warren 1015 who married Beatrice de Normandie (1020), whose father was
31. Richard de Normandie 1001 whose father was
32. Richard de Normandie 963 (“The Good”) whose father was
33. Richard de Normandie 933 (“Sans Peur”) whose father was
34. Guillaume de Normandie 895 (“Long Epee”) whose father was
35. Rollo Rognovaldsson 846 born Maer, Norway, whose father was
36. Rognvald Eysteinsson 830 (“The Wise”), whose father was
37. Eystein Ivarsson 800 (“Glumra”), born Maer, Norway, whose father was
38. Ivar Halfdanssen 770 born Oppland, Norway, whose father was
39. Halfdan Sveidassen 700 (“The Aged”), whose father was
40. Sveide Svidrasson 650 (“The Sea King”), whose father was
41. Svidri Heytsson 600 born Raumsdal, Norway, whose father was
42. Heytir Gorrson c.570 who was also born in Raumsdal.
If you're still awake after all that, maybe you could proffer any comments?
Oh and there's another strand which goes via the Ferrers/Despenser route to Edward the First, and another that goes via the la Zouche/Fergent/de Bretagne/Vermandois/Pepins route to Charlemagne.
Zzzzzzzz...
Stuart
Thanks again,
Stuart
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bedfordshire boy
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Hi Stuart
Thanks for that line, which I’ll investigate. The weak link is probably going to be John Green 1445 ‘s father, plus my doubt about Thomas Earl - The National Burial Index has an age at burial for him as 82 in 1831, and whilst these ages are often inaccurate (often overstated the older the deceased was) it’s the best estimate we have. With no supporting evidence and no baptisms for any children of John and Mary his parentage is not a conclusion I would have arrived at.
The older these lines get the greater the pinches of salt I take with them.
I’ll send you the ascendancy chart offboard – apart from Charlemagne again it also includes Alfred the Great, which is doubtless where I got my culinary skills from.
Whilst the Thomas Cooper may not be in your tree he is part of it as follows
1. Stuart Earl 1959 whose father was
2. Gordon John Earl 1929 whose father was
3. Walter John Earl 1884 whose father was
4. William Absalom Earl 1865 whose father was
5. William Earl 1830 whose father was
6. Thomas Earl 1806 married Rebecca Roberts whose mother was
7. Mary Cooper b 1770 whose father was
8. Thomas Cooper b c 1745
Regards
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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