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Topic: Naturalisation, Internment: Immigrant Information at KEW: (Read 6814 times)
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Berlin-Bob
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5689
by: My Daughter. Chatting to find her Roots !
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One possible source of information for immigrant ancestors is the National Archives at Kew:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
three areas are especially interesting:
1) Naturalisation Records:
IF yours ancestors did in fact get naturalised; not everyone did ... (see my posting below)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/naturalisation/
2) Ships lists
The NA have some lists of ships for emigration and for immigration:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/migration/
3) Internment records:
a query from "wondering" - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=21729.0 - put me on to this one :
Many immigrants from "enemy" countries were interned on the outbreak of war(s)
My guess is, that any records of internment would be kept at the National Archives at Kew.
I entered "internment of aliens" in the search box and got 57 matches, but haven't got as far as going through them all.
If anybody has tried any of these, please could you tell us about it here, especially internment and naturalisation - It would be interesting to know what information is actually in these documents, and whether they are worth looking for ...
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« Last Edit: Saturday 01 January 05 14:11 UTC (UK) by Berlin-Bob »
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Searching for Coleman, Moore, Kallnung in London; Margulies, Remenyi in E. Europe; Ancestors of Hessie Stevenson-Coleman-Baxter (Ireland, 1861) and, of course, any other ancestors for my web-site. All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk) |
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Berlin-Bob
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5689
by: My Daughter. Chatting to find her Roots !
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I posted this info. on another thread, but I thought I would put it here, too, so I don't keep repeating myself.
The original question, was whether immigrants had to become naturalised.
As far as I know, naturalisation wasn't /isn't compulsory. If you thought you would benefit from it, then you did it, otherwise, --- why bother ?
Nowadays naturalisation means social service benefits, travel documents, a passport, freedom from persecution (?) and all sorts of "goodies", so I suppose it would be more common.
As to when, this could happen any time. I don't know if there are any rules; in Germany the rule is (was ?) you have to live here for 5 years, have a job, etc, etc.
Then there is the other extreme:
My g-grandfather was (supposedly) german, but in the 1901 cenus he gives place of birth as Stepney. My guess is that he came over illegally or semi-legally and didn't want to draw unnecessary attention to himself and his circumstances.
So there will be many immigrants who were never naturalised, but whose children were british by birth.
Hope this helps.
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Searching for Coleman, Moore, Kallnung in London; Margulies, Remenyi in E. Europe; Ancestors of Hessie Stevenson-Coleman-Baxter (Ireland, 1861) and, of course, any other ancestors for my web-site. All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk) |
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penninah
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1392
Great Grandpa William Hillman
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Hi all!
I got my long awaited nationality and naturalization documents from Kew today, so i shall share with you what i have on it!
I have 12 pages, some things are difficult to read.
Firstly i have an opening letter stamped home office 1908
Regarding my rellie Heinrich Friedrich yacob Wambach;
Herewith we enclose memorial for the grant of certificate of Naturalization to the above alien together with the neccesary Declarations in support and trust that you will be able to give the matter you favourable attention.
we are, sir,
you obediant servants,
WATERLOW BROTHERS & LAYTON LMT.
Then it is signed, JH
the under-secretary of state,
home office,
SW
On the next page it actually says CLOSED UNTIL 2009 but they must have had a change of heart!
On this page it gives the full name of alien and of agent plus the minutes and a report which has a few dates next to it and says 'favourable'
Next comes the 'enquiry by the home office'
With a letter from the Capt Chief Constable (police officer, Ipswich)
He goes on to say that my Wambach was a man of good character, respectable etc... basically not a man that finds himself on the wrong side of the law! he writes my rellies reason for naturalization is to gain a vote and that his wife and child are British Citizens.
Next page i have; The humble memorial of said rellie
having been born in Hamburg in the Empire of Germany on february 20th 1876 to parents; Friedrich Yacob Wambach and Dorathea Dabelstien both subjects of Germany.
Then has my rellies address in Ipswich, his age and occupation; basing merchant
Then that he is a married man with one child, then childs name and age
Then his place of buisness.
Next page; All of his addresses from 1901 to 1908
Then underneath that it says;
That your Memorialist seeks to obtain the rights and capacities of a natural born British subject from a desire to....... This is quite hard to work out but mostly is from a business point of view, he goes on to say that he wishes more independence for his business and to have a say in matters of government!
Then it is signed.
The next page is his solemn declaration of his intent to stay in this country and that all info he has given is correct etc etc...
The next few pages are all in relation to his referees, Their declarations of british birth and their acquaintance with my rellie. Then they write about his Character personally and in business etc...
Then their names, occupations and addresses.
Finally the signatures of all 4 referee's
THE END!
I hope that was of some help!
Pen 
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YORKSHIRE; Blackburn (+ Lancs), Goodwin (+Derby), Harrison (+Notts), Leather, Liversidge (+Notts), Rowbotham (+Cheshire), Rowbottom + Thomas.
MX; Bartlett (+Berks), Dabelstein(+Hamburg), Doling (+Hants), Morgan (+Glouc), Pilgrim, Pullen, Spacey, Tedder, Twigg, McCormack(+Roscommon, Ireland), Vincent (+Essex& Kent), Wambach (+Hamburg & Suffolk), Wadley & Wilkins.
NORTHUMBERLAND; English, Huggup & Webster.
HANTS; Heath
Any census info is crown copywright
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Biker
RootsChat Honorary
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4625
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Pen, a great document to have and full of interesting info by the sounds of it.
Useful to know exactly what kind of info is included as I'm waiting for one to arrive in the post myself.
Regards
Jonathan
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JLo
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 498
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We had an 'interesting' experience with naturalisation papers that I thought I'd relate. Our ancestor who, we believe, came from Berlin, Prussia was called Maurice Loewenthal, but was also known as Marcus, Moses and several other names. He was born in 1831 and was married in London in 1861. With all this in mind (and the variations on the spelling of Loewenthal) we looked in the National Archives for Naturalisation Papers.  To our surprise we found some (Moses Loewenthal from Prussia, naturalised 1855), paid our hefty fee and waited with baited breath.
Imagine the dissapointment to find it was the wrong one  He was far too old (born c1794), already married with six children and living in Edinburgh.
So anyone who is related to THIS Moses Loewenthal let me know!!
Julie
PS The Papers I've got say much the same as Pen's, gives interesting background information - this Moses Loewenthal was 'by Trade a Tea Dealer and Importer of Turkey Sponges and practises the profession of Chiropodist' 
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukMarshall, Beeson (Herts) Lo(e)wenthal,Kavanagh, Maxam (London, Birmingham) Harrisson, Matthews (London, Essex) Poulton, Philbrick (Essex) Guest, Timmins (Staffs) Raynes/Ryall (Ireland, Birmingham) White (Bucks) Gunn (Scotland, Lancs, Essex) Ison (Tamworth, Birmingham, USA, Canada) |
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case
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 20
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I went to Kew to look for my grandfather's internment record - he was interned in Liverpool in 1940 as an enemy alien.
I found my grandmother's and great aunt's classifications as C grade enemy aliens (i.e. low risk). They were not interned. However I was told that most of the records of those people actually interned had not been released to the public and I would not be able to have access to my grandfather's records.
There is a useful book about internment of German and Austrian enemy aliens in WW2 called "The internment of aliens" by F. lafitte. I have a copy published in 1940 but it is still in print.
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russethouse
RootsChat Member
Posts: 146
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Does searching the archive on line give any indication as to whether there are papers ?
My great, great grandfather was a Philip Bender, wife Catharine Zimmer, by the time it got to the 1851 census they were entered as being born in Germany, British subjects.
Were the documents with all the info,(penninahs post) naturalisation papers or a 'denizen' and what would a 'denizen' show?
Sorry to be dim !
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Biker
RootsChat Honorary
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4625
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Hello and welcome!
As far as I remember, when I found the reference to my ggg grandmother's naturalisation online it just indicated the year of naturalisation, it didn't give much else at all. I was lucky in that her married name was very unusual so I knew it must be her.
One thing I do remember, when you actually order them online there is an option - sorry can't remember the wording - but something like include all papers. I chose that option, it was £10-12 I think.
When I got the papers there were 8 pages of A5 including the naturalisation document itself, plus Scotland Yard reports, documents from the local Police - all really interesting stuff about family as well as testemonials from two witnesses (I guess neighbours or friends).
I'm not sure what you get if you say choose this 'this document only' or similar - perhaps just the naturalisation paper itself?
Hopefully somebody else who has ordered it more recently will be able to give more accurate info.
In my opinion it was a great find and well worth the money.
Best of luck
Jonathan
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russethouse
RootsChat Member
Posts: 146
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Thanks Jonathan, Maybe I am not using the National Archive search facility correctly ? I think I looked under HO45.......
It sounds like the papers you and penninahs have are the full scale naturalisation.
A trip to Kew doesn't fill me with glee, but I would dearly love to find out where abouts in Germany they came from.
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Biker
RootsChat Honorary
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4625
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Hello,
I just searched from the main catalogue here http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.asp
I did have a quick look, using the full names and surnames only but didn't find anything  If you search under Zimmer for instance, you will see quite a few entries which are easy to spot, document title is quite obvious.
Perhaps they were not actually naturalised, sorry I'm not an expert on this subject. Berlin Bob knows quite a bit and when he comes online perhaps he'll be able to help more.
You don't say when they were born. Have you found them on other census entries? Might be worth checking to see if any birthplace is mentioned that might be useful.
I should mention that the individual I found the naturalisation papers for was British, but married a German. She was obliged, after he died, to re-claim her British citizenship which was I think especially enforced in the lead up to World War 1, so you will find that there are a lot of naturalisations around the 1914-15 period.
p.s. I still have an ancestor born in Germany who I'd also love to find out where in Germany he came from, but he only ever mentions Germany on all of the census entries.
Cheers
Jonathan
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Berlin-Bob
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5689
by: My Daughter. Chatting to find her Roots !
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Hi russethouse,
I just posted a new thread here, Immigrants and Aliens about a book I found recently in the library.
Welll worth a read !
I believe denization means naturalised by the King's Writ and Naturalisation is through Bureacratic means, but it's all in the book, I only skimmed through it !
Bear in mind, that not everybody did get naturalised so you may not find anything.
Good luck,
Bob
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« Last Edit: Monday 28 March 05 19:26 UTC (UK) by Berlin-Bob »
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Searching for Coleman, Moore, Kallnung in London; Margulies, Remenyi in E. Europe; Ancestors of Hessie Stevenson-Coleman-Baxter (Ireland, 1861) and, of course, any other ancestors for my web-site. All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright (see: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk) |
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russethouse
RootsChat Member
Posts: 146
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Thanks - that was kind of you.
A kind lady on another board has looked up some entries for me on the 1841 & 51 census. So far the Zimmers are just marked with an F (for foreign) on the 41, but when Philip & Catharine appear together on the 51 they are born in Germany, British subject, So I think perhaps they became british subjects between 1842 (when they married) and 1851.
I don't think they would have been well off, (a shoemaker with eventually four children) and I wonder if they may have gone for the Denizen option rather than full naturalisation.
I have looked at the IGI for Germany but without knowing a little more its difficult to know if you have the right people.
Berlin - Bob, I think they have that book at the local Family Researh centre - I'll take a look.
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liverpool annie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 13085
Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I want to vent! - I get so frustrated with Kew - you wade through all their searches - only to find out you can only read them there - and I can't get there........I suppose the next step is to try and find somebody else to do it ..... but I've just spent a couple of hours - feeling like I'm getting somewhere
and then boom.....!!!! - Thank's for listening - I know I'm not the only one...... I'll just have to look up somebody else 
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