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Topic: 1851 Census Norwich (Read 907 times)
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krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10451
Nate at 9 weeks
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Hi just wondering if somebody could try to find a couple of sisters for me in the 1851 census for Norwich. Unfortunately I cannot tell you much as I dont know much about these girls. I do not know there parents names. The girls I am after are
Emily Knights b about 1846 Norwich
Elizabeth Louisa Knights b about 1849 Norwich
Thank You....Kris
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 12 November 08 05:34 UTC (UK) by krisesjoint »
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Nicky
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3717
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No Elizabeth to be found, only one born 1835.
But found an Emily that fits,
Address St Martins Street Jones Yard, Norwich
Census place Norwich St Martin at Oak Norwich
PRO ref HO/107/1812
folio 147
page 3
film 0207465
Stephen Bloom, head, widower, 70,male, weaver, Mendlesham, Norfolk
Emily Knights, daughter, unmarried, 39, female, cotton filler, Hoxne, Suffolk
Charles Knights, grandson, 10, male, errand boy, Norwich
Harriett Knights, grandaughter, 8,female, scholar,Norwich
John Knights, grandson, 6, male,scholar,Norwich
Emily Knights,grandaughter, 4,female, scholar, Norwich
Hope this helps
Nicky
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSewell - Surrey Lynch - Ireland, Devon and Channel Islands Whall and Pye - Norwich, Essex and Kent Cotterill - Warwickshire Adams - North and East Riding of Yorkshire Preest, Dufty Lewis, Aston - Forest of Dean |
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krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10451
Nate at 9 weeks
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mmm Nicky Thank you. looks like i will need 41 to get to the bottom of this one. Dau unmarried but different name to father  surely she is a widow.
Thanks very much...Kris 
REQUEST COMPLETED
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« Last Edit: Sunday 03 October 04 10:08 UTC (UK) by krisesjoint »
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LucyLockett
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 23
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi, did you ever get anywhere with your research on Emily Knights born in Suffolk and moved to Norwich in Norfolk? I too am stuck on whether she actually ever married, was Stephen Bloom her father? She had a daughter called Emily Knights who married Matthew George Rix and am finding her parents a little difficult to sort out. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks
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krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10451
Nate at 9 weeks
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Hi Lucy,
A Big Welcome to RootsChat.
Appologies for my delay in getting back to you. I somehow missed your reply.
This is an oldie. Sorry I am not related. It is my research buddy's family. I posted the request for her some years ago in my early days on RootsChat.
I have not looked at this in some time although I am often helping my friend with her family, but no we do not have the marriage, nor Emily's baptism. The belief is that Emily was Emily Bloom who is supposed to have married John Knights. No marriage located. My friend is decended from young Emily and Matthew George Rix through their daughter Rachel.
Cheers Kris
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aelf
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
This is my first Rootschat posting, so please excuse my butting in...
I've been wrestling with Emily Knights for some time - she appears to be my 3xgreat grandmother, though the family seems to have been rather relaxed about detail when giving any information to the authorities, so everything comes with a health warning.
I think the strongest likelihood is that Emily was never married. Stephen Bloom was her stepfather (father in law in the 1851 census). He married Lydia Knights in St George Colegate, Norwich 6 June 1821; Lydia was the widow of John Knights who married her 2 December 1811 in Hoxne, her maiden name was Palmer, the daughter of Francis Palmer (died Hoxne 1794) and Keturah Shreeve (glorious name) The baptismal register for Hoxne 1813-1837 is apparently missing so there is no absolute proof that Emily was their daughter but another daughter, Priscilla, had an illegitimate daughter also named Emily who was baptised in May 1811 in Hoxne and died the following October.
Stephen and Lydia apparently had 3 children, William Bloom (only known from the 1841 census) Francis Stephen Bloom born 1 April 1828 and Richard, born 26 July 1831 and buried 12 August 1831. Lydia was buried in St George Colegate 29 July 1831, presumably died in childbirth.
A removal order was issued on 14 April 1829 against Stephen Bloom, linen-weaver, his wife Lydia and two children, for their removal from St George Colegate to Mendlesham. Presumably they came back.
The surving family members are in the 1841 census in Pitt Street, St Augustine, Norwich. They all have the surname Bloom, and include Emily's (presumed) children Charles 4 and Harriet 1. There is no sign of anyone who could be Emily's husband.
Charles is my 2xgreat grandfather. Although his age is given as 10 in the '51 census all later records indicate a birth around 1836/7 although I have not been able to find any record. He married Ann Dye in 1856 and his marriage certificate names his father as William Knights, but on his second marriage in 1875 his father's name is not recorded.
Emily is in the 1861 census in Oak Street, Norwich with Emily 14 and Elizabeth 11. She is listed as a charwoman, born in Norwich and a widow. If it were not for the 2 daughters I would be less certain she was the same person.
I can't find any trace of Emily in the 1871 census but she died in Tinklers Lane, Heigham on 12 April 1876 of chronic bronchitis. Her death certificate says she was the widow of John Knights (not William) and the burial register for Earlham Road Cemetery (16 April) says she was a single woman.
One final complication - the baptism register for St George Colegate shows a baptism of Emily, daughter of Francis and Emily Knights, born 9 September 1846, baptised 6 June 1847. I may be slandering my ancestors, but I have a suspicion that Emily's stepfather Stephen may be the father of her children; he was buried 7 February 1854 and his name is recorded as Stephen Francis Bloom.
If hope this has not just muddied the waters - if you have any evidence to contradict what I seem to have found, let me know.
Aelf
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LucyLockett
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 23
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Aelf,
Oh my goodness what a very complicated piece of information but I was told that Emily Knights was going to take a lot of working out and looks like you may have been just the person I was waiting for. I will need to digest the information you have given me and then pass it on to my friend and then on to another lady who I know will be fascinated. My friend and this other lady are related to Matthew and Emily Rix (nee Knights). Thank you ever so much for taking the time to copy your research to me. There are many odd people who research and never want to share that with others, why I have no idea but you have shown what I have known to be true of many. Like me you are willing to share what it has taken you months and years to unravel so again thank you very much. My friend Sue and her mum will be thrilled as will I am sure the Rix Alliance people who they may be meeting up with at the end of this month in Norwich.
Vicky
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aelf
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Vicky and Kris,
Good to know my info was useful - and apologies for anything unclear, misleading or just plain wrong.
Kris, you are of course right about Emily being listed as Stephen Bloom's daughter in the 1851 census, that was a lapse on my part. It still leaves the problem of Charles's age - he should have been around 16 but I wonder if the original census information was misread when the enumeratoir filled in the final form we see today. In any case it looks very much as though the Knights/Bloom family was not keen on coming to the attention of the authorities.
My particular problem is that I have no positive evidence that my ancestor Charles Kights was the same person as the one in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. I can't find any other possible candidate; also Charles and his son were both horsehair drafters, which is part of the brush making process - many others among the family were in the same trade.
It seems difficult to trace the family through the 1800s and it looks as though part of the problem is that the surnames change from Bloom to Knights and back again. The FreeBMD
index shows a Harriet and John Knights having their births registerd at the right time to match the census ages, but in the Hoxne district - could they be the right ones?
As to the possibility that Stephen might be the father of Emily's children, that's just my nasty mind. It's more likely that he wasn't, but raises the possibility that Emily just picked the names of male relatives at random whenever anyone official asked who her husband was! I could be completely wrong and I try to keep an open mind when investigating Emily, but I keep remembering a quote from the late Alan Malville - "she was no better than she ought to be, and sometimes not as good as..."
I certainly saw the burial record for Stephen in the register of St George Colegate but I could have copied the date wrong. Another possibility is that the death was registered after the burial - I don't know if that is possible, but at that period it was the responsibility of the registrar to find the information, the public were not forced to supply it voluntarily.
Sorry about the confusion over Priscilla's daughter, I was trying to avoid overloading the message. The position is as follows: Francis Palmer and Keturah Shreeve had 5 children in Hoxne, Francis, Priscilla, Prudence, Lydia and Mary. Priscilla had a daughter Emily baptised 14 May 1811 (no father named). When I found that in the Hoxne register I thought I had a new lead, until I found she was buried 10 Oct 1811.
Francis Palmer senior married Keturah 22 May 1785 in Stradbroke, Suffolk and he had a pauper's burial in Hoxne 21 Nov 1794. His age as given at death would give a birth about 1761. There was a Francis born then in Hoxne, but I'm not sure if he's the same person - his father was a farmer and appears to have been still alive in the 1790s, which makes me wonder whether he would have managed a "proper" funeral.
I'm still trying to get to grips with the people from the 1841 census in later years. I'm not sure enough of anything to pass it on yet, but there is one possible pice of extra evidence. The 1841 census shows the following "Blooms" - Stephen 65, Emily 25, Samuel 20 , Willam 15, Francis 10, Charles 4 and Harriet 1. (If you look them up on ancestry.co.uk you'll find them transcribed as Blonn) The only possible match I can find for Samuel in 1851 is a Samuel Knights, horsehair weaver, who was born around 1816 and who sometimes, but not always, gives his birthplace as Hoxne, presumably a brother of Emily. I won't burden you with the full details of his career at present but it appears to follow the same pattern of confusion as the rest of the family.
Finally, I am still trying to solve the mystery of Elizabeth Knights, daughter of Charles. I can't see a record under either Knights or Sayer. It sometimes seems that every new fact raises at least two new questions.
Best wishes,
Larry
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JerryWymer
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello again,
Quick note - I went back to Norwich last week. Spent most of the time on other branches of my tree, but did establish I had mis-transcribed Stephen Bloom's burial; date was 7 April 1854 not 7 Feb.
Larry
I believe Stephen Francis Bloom, to give him his full name, was my great great great grandfather. He died on 1st April 1854 at Brooke's Yard, St Martin at Oak. The informant was E Knights who was present at death, which logically would be Emily Knights. His age was given as 75, which means the information on this thread about him being 70 on the 1851 census doesn't quite tally up.
If anyone can supply more information about him, his removal order etc, it would be most welcomed.
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aelf
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I doubt whether any age in the 1851 census can be trusted to be accurate for the Blooms/Knights. Charles Knights, my great-great grandfather is said to be 10 but all the other censuses (including 1841 where hios surname is Bloom) and certificates suggest he would have been born around 16. I don't think the family was particularly keen on giving accurate information to the authorities - not surprising if they thought they might be shipped off to Suffolk at short notice!
The removal order is in the Suffolk Record Office in Ipswich. I haven't seen it but the listing on the Access To Archives site shows him as a linen-weaver with wife Lydia and 2 children, from "St George of Colegate" to Mendlesham. I think by this time you could only be "removed" if you were actually about to become a charge on the parish, so presumably they were broke by 14 April 1829. What I don't know is how they could stop you coming back, if you found a way of getting enough cash to avoid being noticed. They were back within 2 years because their last child, Richard, was baptised in St George Colegate on 29 July 1831 and Lydia was buried on the same day. She died on the 26th, presumably in childbirth, so presumably that was also Richard's birthday.
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JerryWymer
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for that information. His death certificate says he was a weaver so it fits in. His son Francis Stephen set up a succesful Horsehair Manufacturing business in Norwich, which lasted for well over 50 years. It's early days yet for me as I have only started researching this, but it would appear that Stephen's poor situation could have been a catalyst for his son to be successful.
There is a large family memorial in Rosary Cemetery which I presume was instigated by Francis, and an indication of the wealth they would have had then, compared to his father.
I also tend to agree with the earlier comment that Stephen could have fathered the children of his step-daughter Emily Knights.
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aelf
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Charles Knights probably worked for the same business - he was a horsehair draughter, died 12 December 1895 in Norwich though I don't have the address.
Charles's son Charles John Knights was my great grandfather and was also a horsehair draughter. He was born 21 October 1859 and died 23 June 1883 at Duck Lane, St Benedict's. His death was reported by the coroner, as natural causes. I believe he died some time after being injured in some sort of accident involving a cart, but this is a third-hand report via my daughter, who was not given any names when she was told; the source of the story now has Alzheimers so I'm unable to verify the facts.
We may be libelling Stephen concerning the paternity of Emily's children, but there's no other father in sight and the births start a few years after Lydia's death. I think it's either that, or Emily was a prostitute because if there was any other sort of informal relationship there tends to be some indication such as the father's surname being used as a middle name for the child - at least that seems to be the pattern with many of my ancestors. Fortunately the dead can't sue.
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Cannell, Cutting, Lawrence in Norfolk
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JerryWymer
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hopefully I will find out more soon and let you know. As for libelling, as you point out the dead can't sue. As both a writer and publisher I can assure you we have nothing to worry about here!
Would be intrigued to know more behind your thinking that Emily could have been a prostitute. Just speculation?
As I said I've only just started looking in to my family but I hope to go through old newspapers soon. There might be info about the removal order, and perhaps if she was a prostitute, she may have come in contact with the law. What do you think?
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