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Topic: Cornish Mystery (Read 14612 times)
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Valda
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The reference for the Amelia death certificate for obtaining the death certificate from the General Register Office is
Deaths
June Quarter 1842
Registration district Truro
Volume 9 Page 245
CARNARTON Amelia
The General Register Office website where you can order the certificate is
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificate/
They are geared up to sending certificates overseas otherwise I might have recommended Truro registry office itself because they would probably be quicker at producing the certificate.
Amelia's death certificate alone may not solve the issue.
If it rules out an older woman then that is probably it for Amelia Carnartons, because there must surely be a limit to how many of these actually existed. JAP is really truly amazing on how many Carnartons she can keep producing out of her IGI 'magician's hat' but she isn't I don't think going to find three. So that would solve the issue.
Alternatively if it rules out a younger woman we are still left with the problem of whether there was only ever one or were there two Amelias -whether the 1841 census showed the only one there was with the wrong age when she was actually the younger Amelia!
Along with Amelia's age on the death certificate and her cause of death you get the name of who registered the death, but this early not their relationship, if any, to the deceased. English death certificates don't go overboard in the information stakes. You also get where Amelia died. She may of course not have died in Kenwyn which could mean an Amelia elsewhere on the 1841 census to have another look for. If she was the younger Amelia instead of an occupation you may get the daughter of ........ If the death was sudden and she died from an unknown cause we may get the added bonus of an inquest (no idea on the survival rates of Cornish inquest records but that will only be of interest if there was one).
The other web address at some point you are probably going to need is Cornwall's record Office where the quarter session records are held amongst a mass of other records.
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=307
Regards
Valda
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Valda
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Just some tidying up
- as I was looking at anyone in Kenwyn on the 1851 census who was born Helston at the beginning of the C19th/late C18th I saw this couple
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 311
Carelew? Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Richard Dennis 53 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Head Married Bargeman
Mary Dennis 60 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married Bargeman's wife
1861 census RG9 1559 folio 32
Carelew? Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Richard Dennis 63 Kea, Cornwall, Head Married Labourer
Mary Dennis 70 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married Labourer's wife
Deaths Sep 1867
Dennis Mary 78 Truro 5c 102
Deaths Dec 1869
Dennis Richard 73 Truro 5c 117
IGI children of Richard and Mary
ALICE DENNIS
Christening: 22 AUG 1819 Kenwyn, Cornwall
WILLIAM DENNIS
Christening: 12 OCT 1823 Kenwyn, Cornwall
CHARLES DENNIS
Christening: 03 JUL 1825 Kenwyn, Cornwall
RICHARD DENNIS
Christening: 08 JUN 1828 Kenwyn, Cornwall
Marriage Kenwyn 11 Apr 1819
Richard DENNIS
Mary CARNANTON
Helston 20 Mar 1791
Charles CARNARTHAN
Margaret PERROW
Still haven't found any connection with this family and tanning which is a trifle worrying.
Regards
Valda
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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Hi again
Have been doing my own searching today...well trying to at least. I just had this thought ...Charles had a baby sister called Emily (she was 1 year old in 1841)...do you think she might have been the one that died in 1842 and that her name was transcribed as amelia on death record and not Emily? whaty i am trying to say is that would it be possible for emily to have become an Amelia??
i have tried to check the 1851 census to see if she was still around but too no avail!!!!
am i clutching at straws here ? 
so if we can possibly prove that emily died after 1841 census then maybe she is the amelia who died in 1842.
what do you all think?
regards
Deb
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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Valda
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I had already considered an Emily/Amelia for an 1817 baptism and couldn't find one.
It wasn't the case that the name was used interchangeably in Charles and Mary's family at least. They had two daughters - Amelia baptised 1824 and Emily aged 1 and 11 on the 1841 and 1851 censuses (the 1851 census is back on a Wednesday message - Emily still present).
Benjamin Carnarton doesn't seem to have had a daughter called Emily, but of course there is always the chance of another illegitimate daughter somewhere but she hasn't appeared on the IGI or in the Cornwall Family History Society indexes online at Family History Online, legitimate or otherwise.
Tinner is not really much better than tanner when you are coming up with potential sons and son-in-laws who are bargemen on the censuses. That occupation has a tendency to run in families.
Will the county record office look up a burial by email when all you know is the person died in Truro registration district, as opposed to a specific parish? Do you have to request a specific parish which would obviously be Kenwyn but if she isn't buried there (and only one Carnarton is up to 1837 and more must have died somewhere!) I presume they are not going to do a full blown search for free? The only reason I asked was it might be better to save their goodwill for a 'Bastardy Order' search which can only be got from them - the death certificate can be got separately and would give more information than a burial?
It is not my decision to make. The age alone on the burial may be sufficient information if it is an older woman, but that is all the information likely to got from the burial - age.
You could try a request on Rootchat for anyone going to Cornwall CRO to look up the burial in Kenwyn.
Sorry I can't be more helpful but I think we are grinding to halt on Carnarton at this point without access to further records. There is only so far you can get relying on the Internet alone. A death certificate ordered now probably isn't going to arrive until sometime in early May - the GRO are a bit snowed under with requests at present. There is a list of accredited researchers on the CRO website who you could employ to search records at the CRO and I'm sure Cornwall FHS has members who will also help. There is on their website one of their members expressing an interest in all Carnartons. If they have done a lot of research on the surname they may very well be worth contacting as we may be duplicating at least in part what they have already found out.
http://www.cornwallfhs.co.uk/Members_Interests/BURT-COCKRAM.htm
CARNARTHEN > > > > > > > Illogan All periods Member No. 04931
CARNARTON > > > > > > > All areas CON 1600-1699 1700-1799 1800-1899 Member No. 01149
CARNARTON > > > > > > > Truro 1800-1899 Member No. 10785
Cornwall FHS home page is here
http://www.cornwallfhs.com/index.htm
You should be able to contact them from the home page to ask how to get in touch with member No 01149. If that person has Internet access you could direct them to this thread on Rootschat. I've had that happen before and the person has very successfully joined the thread.
Regards
Valda
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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Valda
OMG....you have done so much for me in my quest to find more about Amelia and her family. I am so grateful to you and JAP.....the time and effort you have put into this is wonderful...i just wish i could repay you in someway!
i will order the death cert asap and let you know the info.
THANK YOU once again
 Deb
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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JAP
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Valda, you've come up with lots more valuable information. I gather that the two marriages - Richard DENNIS & Mary CARNANTON 1819 Kenwyn, and Charles CARNARTHAN & Margaret PERROW 1791 Kenwyn - were from your other source (not the IGI). Both very interesting.
Just a piece of tidying up re the household where Margery CARNARTON Aunt 86 was in the 1851.
The 61 yo shoemaker Head is actually Sarah LIBBEY, not SIBBEY. It's the strangest 'L' I've come across but if one compares it with the enumerator's 'S' and with other instances of 'L', it becomes clear (e.g. in Laundress and in LIDDICOAT which was also transcribed as 'S').
Sarah is in the 1841 on FreeCEN in Goodwives Lane as Sally LIBBY, 50, Journeyman Shoemaker.
And the 31 yo niece in the 1851 is actually Fanny MINERS - once one knows it becomes obvious though I certainly couldn't see it until I did know!
William LIBBY & Sarah POLKINGHORNE married in Kenwyn in 1784. A William LIBBY & a Sarah had (all Truro bar Catharine who was Kenwyn):
Catharine 1786, Sarah 1789, Betsey 1791, William 1793 d 1799, Polly 1795, William 1800.
Betsey LIBBY married Thomas MINERS in 1819. A Thomas MINERS & a Betsey had (all bap Truro):
Fanny 1819, Edward Jennings 1822, William 1824, William 1827, Thomas 1830
Thomas (as MINORS) and Betsey are on the 1841 on FreeCEN at Pydar St - Thomas 50 Carpenter, Betsey 45, Fanny 20, Edward 15 Carpenter Apprentice, William 10, Thomas 10.
I can't pin down Margery(?) ASHBORNE, 12 yo granddaughter to the unmarried Sarah LIBBEY in the 1851. There are a couple of ASHBORNE (however spelled) families on the IGI - Thomas & Jane who had children 1814-1828, and Edward & Ann who had children 1835-1855. No Margery - the nearest is Mary Jane, 1841 (IGI and FreeBMD). And I can't find any ASHBORNEs (however spelled) in the 1841.
Regards,
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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peterpjw
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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G'day everyone
I am Peter Williams, Cornwall FHS m/no 4931, and owner of website
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~peterpjw/Carnarthen.html
My main area of interest (related to this thread) is the CARNARTHEN family. This family includes farmers and malt millers resident in the parish of Phillack from the middle of the 17th century and covers four generations to the middle of the 18th century. While the senior branch of this line remained in Phillack for one hundred years or so, junior branches moved to Uny Lelant, Camborne, St Ives and Madron and other places nearby.
I have been very interested to read this thread, and am closely watching to see if research leads to CARNARTHEN families in the Phillack area.
I'm not one to frequent this kind of chat forum (I prefer email mailing lists), but will be happy to answer any questions here on this topic.
At this point, I have only one suggestion regarding the name Amelia. On another of my lines, an Amelia was known as Amy, Amaila, Emma and Ann, but perhaps you could also look for Millie, Milly, Emilia, Emmy and other variants.
The originator of this thread is certainly receiving some wonderfully erudite advice on this matter. Congrats to all involved.
Many thanks to JAP for alerting me to this discussion.
Regards
Peter
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« Last Edit: Saturday 08 April 06 04:38 BST (UK) by krisesjoint »
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goggy
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Congratulation's to all concerned in this terrific thread!
To paraphrase Wellinton,"I dont know what it does to other's but it fills me with amazement"!!!
Goggy.   
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JAP
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Peter, a fresh pair of eyes certainly helps!
I've corrected my earlier list of spelling variants found (so far) in the IGI. Fancy your finding that thread by 'kennington' re CARNATEON - we missed that!
We now have a whole new Truro family connected to the name (it surely is just a variant of the same name?).
Jacob LEVY married Elizabeth CARNATEON, 1 Jun 1813, Truro
Elizabeth is surely the daughter of Charles CARNARTON and Margery, 1793, Helston (see earlier in the thread) - on the 1851 census, Elizabeth (transcribed on a certain site as LERY) is recorded as age 58 and born Helstone.
And with the family is a 16yo cousin, Elisabeth ASHBURN b Kenwyn ...
A Jacob LEVY and an Elizabeth had, all Truro:
Charles b 1813, bap 1822 (probably the Charles, a watchmaker in Kenwyn in the 1851)
Anna b 1815, bap 1822
Jacob b 1818, bap 1822
Elizabeth b & bap 1822
Henry bap 1824
Emma (LEVI) bap 1826
Matilda bap 1831
Harriet bap 1834
The LEVY family is on FreeCEN in the 1841 at King St, Truro St Mary - all born Cornwall:
Jacob 50 Watchmaker, Elizabeth 49, Hannah 24, Elizabeth 19, Henry 17, Emma 15, Matilda 10, Harriot 8.
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Valda
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The other source I'm using JAP is
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/
you can register there - no charge for that. When I put in the surname Carna* it helps me see variants as well. It costs me about 6 pence a shot to view the details of a marriage.
I have also tried a straight baptism search there just on Amelia, Emily, Amy (it won't allow Ann without a surname as it is to frequent) etc - zilch.
From the IGI
ELIZABETH ANN ASHBOURNE
Christening: 25 DEC 1835 Kenwyn, Cornwall
Father: EDWARD ASHBOURNE
Mother: ANNE
and at last on a census some occupation to do with tanning!!
1841 census
HO107/148/8 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Truro St. Mary Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 47 Page: 20
Address: Goodwives Lane
ESHBURN Edward M 35 Currier Journyman Outside Census County (1841)
ESHBURN Ann F 30 Cornwall
ESHBURN Ann F 6 Cornwall
ESHBURN Thomas M 4 Cornwall
ESHBURN Margery F 3 Cornwall
ESHBURN Jane F 1 Cornwall
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 162
St Clement Workhouse Truro St Clement Cornwall
Ann Ashbourn 41 Helston, Cornwall, Pauper Married Shine Woman
Mary J Ashbourn 11 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Pauper
Eliza Ashbourn 8 Truro, Cornwall, Pauper
Metilda Ashbourn 6 Truro, Cornwall, Pauper
James Ashbourne 20mths? Truro, Cornwall, Pauper
plus
William H Asborne 9 Tavistock, Devon, Pauper
Marriage Kenwyn 9 May 1835
Edward ASHBURN
Ann CARNARTON
Tanner Tanned (cured) animal hides for leather making
Currier 1) Dressed the coat of a horse with a curry comb
2) Tanned leather by incorporating oil or grease
So to recap - of the Helston family we have now found
Mary CARNARTHON √
Christening: 10 Jul 1791 Helston, Cornwall
Married Richard Dennis
ELIZABETH CARNARTEN √
Christening: 23 JUN 1793 Helston, Cornwall
Married Jacob Levy
MARGERY CARNARTON √
Christening: 24 JAN 1796 Helston, Cornwall
Married Thomas Emidy
CHARITY CARNARTON
Christening: 18 FEB 1798 Helston, Cornwall
CHARLES CARNARTON √
Christening: 23 MAR 1800 Helston, Cornwall
Married Mary Duff?
CHRISTIAN CARNARTON
Christening: 01 MAY 1807 Helston, Cornwall
ANN CARNARTON √
Christening: 31 DEC 1809 Helston, Cornwall
Married Edward Asbourne
I can see absolutely nothing for Charitys or Christians on the Cornwall FHS marriage index so I'm concluding we have all of them now that married and survived to adulthood.
Peter
I think you will be lucky if we make a tie to the Phillack CARNARTHENS
On the Cornwall baptism database the earliest Carnarton variant is
Sithney 13 May 1762
JOHN CARNARTON
Father John CARNARTON
Mother Mary
If we are stuck an Amelia connection in 1817 - bit of a stumbling block there because we have still to make something of the Knorrton marriage details - father Charles the tanner
Then we certainly don't have a baptism for Charles Carnarthan who married Margery Perrow in Helston in 1791. Nice though it might be as the earliest CARNARTHER variant in Cornwall seems to be 1569.
Regards
Valda
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JAP
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Valda,
ESHBURN!! I tried every (so I thought) AS*B*N* variant in the 1841 - but idiotically didn't think of starting the name with 'E' (or even perhaps 'HA').
I do wish the origin of Deb's Amelia (KNORRTON?) SLACK/SMITH could be proven. Ah well, even if Deb isn't a CARNARTON, perhaps all this extended family tree will be of use to kennington. And kennington can claim the fascinating EMIDYs as related by marriage.
As for establishing the origins of Charles CARNARTHAN who married Margaret(?) PERROW in 1791 ...
And there's still the puzzle of why George SLACK the coachmaker became George SMITH the hawker ...
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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