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Topic: Cornish Mystery (Read 14494 times)
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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Hi all
Recently, I decided to try to trace some ancestors through my maternal line...thinking that it might be easier...NOt lol
I started with my gr grandmother Bessie Elizabeth Palmer (born abt 1877 in Truro...she married William Penfold)... her parents were John and Mary Palmer (nee Smith ) married in Truro 1876.
I found Mary Smith (Palmer) with her parents and siblings in the 1861 census:
George Smith b abt 1802 in London
Amelia Smith b 1816 in Falmouth
children:
Ann b abt 1842
William b abt 1844
Amelia b 1851
George 1853
James b abt 1855
MARY b 1858 (this is my Mary who married John Palmer)
I couldn't find them before that , so with some great help , we managed to locate them , still in Truro in 1851 but under the name Slack!!!!!
Amelia Slack b 1816 Falmouth
George Slack b 1811 London
Ann b 1842 Truro
William b 1844 Truro
Amelia
Marriage info says that George Slack married Amelia Knoriton in march 1842 in Truro.......
As I am following the female line... my next hurdle is finding out Amelia Knoriton/Slack/Smiths parents.... the confusing thing is that there is absolutely no KNORITON name to be found other than the reference to it in the marriage details of 1842. I have tried the surname every which way...Norton, Noriton< Knerton, Knaugton etc etc...with no luck.
I am hoping someone can solve this for me and maybe the mystery of the change of name from Slack to Smith.
I have not yet had a chance to order this marriage cert...but I am thinking that it may be the only way possible to find out the fathers name...
Hoping to hear from you soon
Thanks
Deb 
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 31 July 07 15:14 BST (UK) by deb usa »
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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Valda
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The entry in the civil registration is clearly typed and reads Knortton. Not much help because that clearly isn't a surname either.
Regards
Valda
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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Valda
thanks for even responding... my whole message seems like a mystery and now Knortton...even more confusing...do you think cert is the only way to go....
i wonder who amelia was.....
thanks for looking ...i do appreciate your quick response
deb:)
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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Valda
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I do think the certificate is the only way to go. Without it you don't have George's father's name and occupation either or the witnesses and the exact place of marriage.
Coming forward on the censuses
1871 census RG10 2283 folio 43
St Mary Truro Cornwall
George Smith 68 London City, Middlesex, Head Married Hawker
Amelia Smith 55 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Wife Married
James Smith 15 St Mary, Cornwall, Son farm Labourer
Mary Smith 12 St Mary, Cornwall, Daughter
1881 census RG11 2312 folio 50
Charles St, Kenwyn, Truro Cornwall
Amelia Smith 66 Truro, Cornwall, Head Widow
Elizabeth Palmer 4 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
1891 census RG12 1830 folio 46
No 4 Hoskins? Court Kenwyn Cornwall
Amalia Smith 75 Truro, Cornwall, Head Widow
Annie Palmer 10 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
Deaths Sep 1894
Smith Amelia 78 Truro 5c 85
So she remains pretty consistent about her age.
Georges death is the more interesting of the two. I could find no George Smith deaths registered Truro between 1871 and 1881 so tried Slack.
Deaths Mar 1872
SLACK George 69 Truro 5c 118
which is consistent with George's age on most censuses.
Slack and Truro on FreeBMD gives you these entries between 1837 and 1872.
Marriages Mar 1842
SLACK George Truro 9 363
Births Dec 1842
Slack Ann Truro 9 312
Births Dec 1844
SLACK William Henry Truro 9 *17
Births Dec 1846
Slack Amelia Truro 9 326
Deaths Jun 1848
Slack Amelia Truro 9 200
Births Mar 1849
Slack Amelia Truro 9 369
Births Mar 1852
Slack George Truro 5c 200
Births Sep 1858
Slack Mary Truro 5c 180
Births Dec 1861
SLACK Emma Barton Truro 5c 167
Births Mar 1867
SLACK William Francis B Truro 5c 169
Deaths Sep 1870
Slack Emma Burton 8 Truro 5c 110
Slack Francis Bassett 3 Truro 5c 110
Deaths Mar 1872
SLACK George 69 Truro 5c 118
Having checked the censuses for Cornwall 1851 to 1881 Slack is a surname virtually unknown in Cornwall apart from your family in 1851. After the 1872 death entry there are no further Slack entries on FreeBMD in Truro (checked up to 1901) so it is reasonable to assume that these Truro Slack entries on FreeBMD are all in someway connected with your family.
Doing the same with the IGI you get
ANN SLACK
Christening: 06 SEP 1844 Truro, Cornwall
JAMES SLACK
Christening: 31 OCT 1855 Truro, Cornwall
MARY SLACK
Christening: 30 AUG 1858 Truro, Cornwall
all the children of George and Amelia and a singleton Slack in 1826 in a different place which probably has no connection.
George's occupation on the 1851 census is coachbuilder journeyman. Journeyman indicates he didn't have his own established business but nevertheless indicates he was a craftsman. This is very different from being a hawker on the later censuses. So it would appear something occurred between 1851 and 1861 that meant the family changed its surname from Slack to Smith at least on an everyday basis (you can call yourself any name you wish to) and finally completely to Smith after the death of George.
On the 1861 census George gives Holborn as his place of birth within London.
There is on the IGI a possible baptism at Holborn at roughly the right time, considering he moves his age around a bit.
GEORGE SLACK
Christening: 29 DEC 1803 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London
Father: WILLIAM SLACK
Mother: ANN
in all three children were baptised at the same time which doesn't mean triplets, just the family was a little lax in getting their children baptised - and therefore the George baptism could indicate an earlier birth as only one of the children is likely to have been born circa 1803.
JOHN SLACK
Christening: 29 DEC 1803 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London,
CHARLES SLACK
Christening: 29 DEC 1803 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London
with a later possible at St Pancras who might be the son of a different William and Ann
WILLIAM FRANCIS SLACK
Christening: 04 AUG 1816 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London
Father: WILLIAM SLACK
Mother: ANN
I can't see any of these as likely siblings on the 1851 census and besides you would really need George's marriage certificate for details about his father to see if this is a likely line or not.
I have done a search on the IGI for all Amelias baptised in Cornwall on the index (which of course has far from complete coverage) and can see no Amelia with a surname anything like Knortton (of course she could have had a baptism earlier or later than I checked). The marriage certificate should give further information - she might even have been a widow for instance! - which hopefully would make looking for her alot easier, but is probably just wishful thinking.
Regards
Valda
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deb usa
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Hi Valda
WOW!!!!!!!!! I am speechless...your info is absolutely fabulous and i really would like to say a big 'thank you' for your time and effort.
i need to let it all sink in...lol
i will definitely order the marriage cert of George and Amelia.... the Knorrton name is driving me crazy.... hopefully on the cert her fathers name might reveal the correct spelling.
Once again thank you sooo much ...I will keep you updated, and hopefully if you have or find anything else you will let me know.
Take care
deb
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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goggy
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Just a thought,and you have probably had before I did!
Could the 'K'be an initial for a second name.Making the surname Norton.
What prompted the thought was 'the clear spelling'  ,copied from an earlier misprint perhap,s?
Goggy. 
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goggy
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And--then there's Knaughton!
Should I just be quiet for a while???
Goggy.
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JAP
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Valda, I've puzzled over this whole story to no avail  However, re one of the SLACKs you found - Emma Barton SLACK b Truro 1861, d (as Emma Burton SLACK) Truro 1870 - I came across the following in the IGI:
Emma SLACK or BURTON, bap 3 Oct 1862, Truro, parents Joseph SLACK or BURTON and Ann.
Another SLACK in Truro going under an alias?
Incidentally, the 1803 baptisms in Holborn in the IGI list the ages of the children of William SLACK and Ann - John 7, Charles 3, and George 1.
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Valda
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Jap
my pot shot at explaining Emma Barton/Slack is that she would be an illegitimate child of Ann Slack/Smith who was not married to Joseph Burton/Barton and as far as I can tell didn't marry him. I think this is Ann's marriage (she got around to it in the end)
Marriages Dec 1870
Bassett Francis Truro 5c 273
SMITH Ann Truro 5c 273
1871 census RG10 2283 folio 64
Back Lane Kenwyn Cornwall
Franas Bassett 28 Helston, Cornwall, Head Married Butcher
Ann Bassett 28 Truro, Cornwall, Wife Married
Annie Bassett 7 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
I imagine still to find is a Slack Bassett birth registration for daughter Annie to go with her brother's birth and death registration.
Births Mar 1867
SLACK William Francis B Truro 5c 169
Deaths Sep 1870
Slack Francis Bassett 3 Truro 5c 110
same quarter as Emma's death registration
Slack Emma Burton 8 Truro 5c 110
We still await the marriage certificate details for George Slack and Amelia Knortton before we can do much more, unless an enquiry to Cornwall Record Office will elicit any further information about George Slack. That may well be worth trying as well.
Regards
Valda
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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hi Guys
thanks so much for still taking an interest in my story. I have received the marriage cert..it states....that GEORGE SLACK married AMELIA KNORTTON ON 13 JANUARY 1842in Truro at the registry office. He was 36 and she 25, his occupation is stated as being a coachmaker. At the time of marriage they were living in calenick street , Kenwyn. Georges father was called WILLIAM SLACK (ALSO A COACH MAKER ) and Amelia's dad was CHARLES KNORTTON (a tanner by trade).
George signed the marriage cert...she marked hers with an X. This is obviously where the surname mistake all began...i am assuming that the official wrote her name down how it was pronounced. Also with the strong cornish accent i assume it surname could be anything ...ie:knaughton, knerton etc.
i did just want to say that whilst going through Cornwall Online Census Project , i did find an AMELIA CARNARTON , aged 24 (1841 census)....she was living with her grandmother Mary Carnarton (aged 70).Amelia was born in Falmouth in 1816...so that would make this girls age correct...also i believe she was a labourer,,,,hence lack of education.
what do you think of this info.
the marriage cert only helped in finding their father's names and not the surname mystery.
i hope to hear from you all soon and thanks once again for taking the time to respond.
regards
Deb
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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Valda
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Part 1
I've only had a go at examining the possibilty that the 1841 census Amelia Carnarton could be the Amelia who married George Slack.
The 1841 census doesn't tell you that Amelia was born in Falmouth. What the 1841 census does tell you (and this is often a bit unreliable but I think in this case will be reliable) is yes or no born in the county. So what the 1841 census says is only that Amelia was born in the county of Cornwall.
The 1841 census also doesn't give relationships. Making assumptions is a very dangerous activity in genealogy. Mary Carnarton may or may not be this Amelia's grandmother. The best you can say is she is a good candidate for this Amelia's grandmother if the age is right (indexed or enumerator correctly in the first place - you can't see the actual census page itself only someone's transcript and the 1841 census is often not easy to read).
Adult ages on the 1841 census (anyone over 15) are rounded to 5 usually down so Amelia could be anywhere between 25 and 30 and Mary 75 to 70 - though sometimes they get rounded up - ages in 1841 are a bit more fluid.
Carnarton seems to be a local surname (place name) to the area so even someone who can't sign their name (and you often find sometimes they can and sometimes they can't - stress and the big event for someone who rarely writes anything and hasn't since Sunday school may cause them to go for the cross as the easier option - it also doesn't mean they can't read) and has a broad Cornish accent should still have been understood by the registrar (but then it is a rare surname). If it was Carnarton the Truro registrar managed to get these others correct.
FreeBMD (incomplete index of the civil registration) Truro registration district including other areas besides Falmouth and Kenwyn.
Births Sep 1837
CARNARTON Female Truro 9 212
Births Mar 1840
Carnarton Female Truro 9 368
Births Sep 1843
CARNARTON Robert Truro 9 324
Marriages Sep 1850
CARNARTON Mary Ann Truro 9 341
Deaths Mar 1842
CARNARTON Mary Jane Truro 9 212
Deaths Jun 1842
CARNARTON Amelia Truro 9 245
Deaths Sep 1846
Carnarton Charles Truro 9 179
Deaths Mar 1848
Carnarton William Truro 9 247
Still everybody has an off day even a registrar, and if his off days were as bad as your Amelia's marriage I wouldn't necessarily spot the very creative attempt at spelling the surname.
It is some way from Carnarton to Knorrton.
Unfortunately the national burial index has coverage of Cornish parishes between 1813-1837 so the only age on burial I know of these Carnartons is Mary Jane who was 4.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
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Part 2
However there is this website
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/Kenwyn/Burials.html
Kenwyn Parish Registers - Some Burials
the only Carnarton found there is
p. 146 No. 1164 (numbers jump 100 numbers for some reason) MARY CARNARTON(CARNASTON?), Calenick Street, 5 March 1858, 57, G. L. Woolcombe(?), Curate
I'm presuming the 57 is her age on burial.
This woman seems the only candidate on the 1851 census unless anyone can find a better one. She doesn't fit the woman with Amelia in 1841.
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 209
High Cross Truro St Mary Cornwall
Mary Carnarton 51 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Lodger Married warehousewoman
Thomas Carnarton 21 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Son Mason's labourer
Emily Carnarton 10 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Daughter
Robert? Carnarton 7 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Son
I think this is probably that Mary on the 1841 census
Piece: HO107/147/14 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kenwyn Truro Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 60 Page: 7
Address: Charles Street
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born
CARNARTON Mary F 40 Lab. Cornwall
CARNARTON Charles M 15 Apprentice Cornwall
CARNARTON William M 13 Cornwall
CARNARTON Thomas M 12 Cornwall
CARNARTON Henry M 6 Cornwall
CARNARTON Mary F 4 Cornwall
CARNARTON Emily F 1 Cornwall
I had a quick stroll down Calenick Street in Kenwyn either side of the Slack family and other than William Carnarton the bone collector born Truro and lodging, there wasn't much else of interest in 1851.
On the 1841 census Amelia Carnarton was living in Calenick Street.
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
I cannot find an Amelia Carnarton baptism on the IGI. My Phillimores Atlas of parish registers says Falmouth and Kenwyn parish registers are fully covered on the IGI but not Kenwyn detached and of course I don't know so much about non-conformist registers.
These are the Kenwyn baptisms for children of a Charles and Mary Carnarton (IGI coverage 1813-1859) - could be a different Charles (you can bet even with a very rare surname - the 1851 census only picks up around 15 possibilities in Cornwall, none in 1861 and 2 in 1871 - they are all in the same place with the same names at the same times) - these baptisms might relate to the Mary found on both the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
CHARLES CARNARTON
Christening: 07 JAN 1827 Kenwyn, Cornwall,
HENRY PERRO CARNARTON
Christening: 25 DEC 1835 Kenwyn, Cornwall
MARY JANE CARNARTON
Christening: 25 DEC 1837 Kenwyn, Cornwall,
plus these three
WILLIAM CARNARTON
Christening: 01 SEP 1833 Constantine, Cornwall
MARY CARNARTON
Christening: 01 SEP 1833 Constantine, Cornwall
THOMAS CARNARTON
Christening: 01 SEP 1833 Constantine, Cornwall
No marriages of anyone in the name Carnarton 20 years either side of 1820 in Cornwall on the IGI. As Kerwyn is to the north and East of Falmouth, Constantine is to the west.
You could try the indexes of the Cornwall family History Society.
http://www.cornwallfhs.com/other/transcription_progress.htm
There is at least one member of the society expressing an interest in all Carnartons and if they have researched the surname that might be an easy way to say whether this is a possibility for Amelia's surname or not.
You also have that possibility of Amelia Carnarton's death registration in 1842 to contend with - especially since at this point only one has been found (still could be a child born and died after the 1841 census and the census index itself is incomplete at present).
All of this should give a start for JAP and something to get her teeth into on the next shift. I look forward to reading what she says. I've not come to any conclusions on this. I'd like to see what JAP thinks.
Regards
Valda
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JAP
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Well Deb ... I really do like the name CARNARTON - it seems eminently possible for KNORRTON. But not, of course, yet proven.
Building on all the great information which Valda provided above, I had a look at that Kenwyn batch with children of a Charles CARNARTON and Mary - and just searched for children of a Charles (no surname) and a Mary. And, would you believe:
Amelia COUNACKAN, parents Charles COUNACKAN and Mary, bap 3 Oct 1824, Kenwyn Cornwall.
(This is the only occurrence of 'COUNACKAN' in the whole of the British Isles IGI so it seems very likely that it is a spelling or transcription error for CARNARTON).
I wonder whether Charles's occupation is given in the actual parish register(s) - both Kenwyn and Constantine ...
So we've now got the baptism of an Amelia BUT, if this Amelia was baptized soon after her birth she would be too young for the Amelia who married George SLACK/SMITH (that Amelia's birthdate is consistently given as ca 1816) and similarly too young for the Amelia (24) in the 1841 census. However, she might have been baptized as a child of 7 or 8 I guess.
But who is the Amelia CARNARTON who died in 1842? That is a worry!
Incidentally, a Mary Jane CARNARTON died in 1842 - perhaps 70yo Mary of the 1841?
The following site:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~peterpjw/Carnarthen.html
lists some spellings of the name. It refers in passing to CARNARTON in Kenwyn in the 1881.
By the way, Deb, who were the witnesses at the marriage?
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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