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Topic: 128a Fowler Street, South Shields (Read 1123 times)
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Hi Everyone,
Could anyone shed some light on why I can't find 128a Fowler Street, on the census returns for 1891 or 1901?
This is pure curiosity as between 1948 & 1963 I lived there (my dad did not move out until 1971) and I wondered who the previous occupants had been. I know there must have been people living above the shops, and in the basement, because there was evidence of fireplaces and old mangles especially down in the basement. It was a very strange feeling down there because you could only see the feet of people walking down the street!
In 1948 one shops was a fireplace shop and the other was a shoe shop, but Hector Grabhams took the shoe shop over as a wallpaper & paint shop, and in 1960 turned the two into one large paint & paper shop. This meant our staircase which was in between the shops had to be moved to the righthand side which also meant we lost access to the basement. The last time I saw inside the basement was from the street looking down a big hole which had been our porch. All those lovely Victorian tiles had been smashed and allowed to fall into the basement - where I expect they are still lying!
Now back to the census search - The buildings are clearly shown on an ordnance survey map of 1895, and I can find houses listed in Charlotte Street & Mount Terrace which along with Fowler Street form a triangle - but nothing listed for those buildings in Fowler Street. Even if they were unoccupied would that not have been recorded on the census return? The shops in Green Street have been recorded even though no one is listed as living there.
Thanks for reading this, and I have my fingers crossed someone has an answer to satisfy my curiosity.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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Helen K
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 886
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Hi Patsy
Not much positive news I'm afraid!
These are references for Fowler Street from an 1891 South Shields street index - I've looked at those pages and not found your 128a.
RG12/4155
Folio 12-13 Fowler Street Numbers 9, 68 & 70, 66, 62 Cumberland House, 56, 46, 36, 32, 28, 24, 6.
Folio 45 Fowler Street Numbers 23-59 (includes St Thomas Church and 33-39 are shops, but unoccupied).
Folio 85-86 Fowler Street Numbers 68 & 65
If you want any further details, such as Streets surrounding these numbers, just let me know.
Regards
Helen K
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Census transcriptions are Crown Copyright of the National Archives
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Hi Helen & Jennifer,
Thank you both for having a search and your suggestions.
I had given some thought as to whether the whole block might have been called 'something buildings' instead of Fowler Street, but I have not found anything that would give a hint.
The shops below our flat were number 126 & 128 which is why we had a small 'a' added to our address, but the numbers seem to run in sequence from the bottom of Fowler Street (down by King Street & Ocean Road).
About two years ago I called into the shop (it was a video shop at that time) and unfortunately I made the young girl assistant feel uncomfortable at the thought the ground beneath her feet was not solid - if she see this I am sorry and hope she is OK now. I found it very strange that there was no access to the flat above as all staircases have been removed. What a waste of a large flat!
When we lived there back in the 50's & 60's on New Years Eve our front door was always open for anyone to drop in, and most people did after gathering around the Christmas Tree outside the Town Hall. We had no idea who most of them were but we all had a great time. How times change!
Thanks again for your help, and I'll keep looking - there must be something somewhere!
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Dear Jennifer,
I will certainly keep the idea of renumbering as a strong possibility.
I suppose previous occupants must have paid rates - my Mam & Dad did, 14/- (70p) per week rent plus 1 penny rates - those were the days - so would there be any records kept and where could I find them? Anyone got any suggestions?
Thank you for your help and interest.
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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janmoore
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 667
I've not edited my PROFILE yet
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South #Shields local studies library have poll books for at least the early 20th century containing the names first of males over 21 eligible to vote and then all adults eligible to vote. My brother and I used them to track where our father and his family lived until 1945.
Jan
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukDurham: Small, Jackson, Mackings, Hedley, Bell Leicestershire: Moore, Burrows, Upton, Flamson London: Lock, Seton, Goldacre, Ervin Yorkshire: Normandale, Machin/Mackin/Mackings |
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janmoore
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 667
I've not edited my PROFILE yet
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Kelly's Durham directory 1914 - the highest house number was 59 and a half!
There were obviously some buildings that were pretty large - or well used! No. 20 for instance had at least five businesses operating from it. Mills and Co were in Standard Buildings; Wood and Son were in Victoria Buildings, as was Hirschmann's pianoforte warehouse. There are several businesses with no number given: Hanlon's grocers,Brown's fruiterers, and Caxton's Shoe Co as examples. Some obviously important buildings are also not given a number: the YMCA, North Eastern Bank chambers, and the Victoria Assembly Hall.
You might be interested to visit these:
This website has a photo of an old bus on Fowler St.
http://www.southshields-sanddancers.co.uk/old_photos/old_trolley_bus.htm
This has a photo of the Stag's Head
http://www.south-shields-online.info/POSS/stagshead/index.htm
This one for lots of photos of old South Shields http://website.lineone.net/~d.ord/The%20Market.htm
Jan
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukDurham: Small, Jackson, Mackings, Hedley, Bell Leicestershire: Moore, Burrows, Upton, Flamson London: Lock, Seton, Goldacre, Ervin Yorkshire: Normandale, Machin/Mackin/Mackings |
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Dear Jan & Jennifer,
Thank you for all the suggestions - I feel a few letters coming on or a quick trip on 'Squeezie Jet'.
I love looking at the Sanddancers website, and have a few old photographs that my Dad took of the Mayor's Parade and the Town Hall from our front door and windows which I keep meaning to send them - the intensions are good! My Mam was a messenger for the fire brigade during the war and afterwards was a member of the auxiliary fire service so she used to take part in the parades.
Back in 2004 I came across a website with pictures of South Shields, one of which was Roberts Television shop on the corner of Fowler Street and Mount Terrace, but do you think I can find the website again!!!!! The reference on the bottom of the page was an http address which continued a5.cpimg.com/image the reason why I am trying to contact them is they have given a date of 1937 for the photo, but it was 1953. The television shop is all decorated for the Coronation, and in 1937 there were not many televisions about! Also in the picture and next door to Roberts was Duncan's Grocers, and my memories in there are they used to have a large slab of butter which they took a lump off and 'patted' it into shape before wrapping it - none of this pre-packed stuff!
Going back to 1953 we had so many people sitting on our balcony at 128a it was amazing we did not fall through into the shops below! Why we were all out there? Watching the Queen's visit. The official film ends as she crosses the Tyne Bridge, but no she continued on down to Shields and visited the Town Hall. I think the TV camera panned around and commented on people watching from every conceivable vantage point.
Enough reminiscence for now before I bore you all.
Thanks again.
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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snackdahl
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Patsy,
I've been checking through the various old maps that I have for South Shields and may have found an answer for you.
In 1897, Fowler Street ran from Ocean Road (as it still does), but ended at Thomas Street where it was called Victoria Terrace until the corner of Ogle Terrace (now Beach Road) where it became Westoe Lane (now Westoe Road). So the block where you lived would have been known as Victoria Terrace (Charlotte Street ran directly behind it and they both merged into Westoe Lane at what is now the Town Hall) This is roughly the last 2 blocks of shops at the top of Fowler Street as it is now.
According to Wards Directory for this period, Fowler Street ran from no2 - no78 and no7 - no65 on either side and Victoria Terrace ran from no1 - no23 on the one side.
Incidently, 128/130 Fowler Street is now the estate agents "Chase Homes".
Regards,
Rob
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Dear Rob,
Thank You so much for that lead - I have spent the last couple of happy hours (I should have been doing something else, but never mind!) having a good old search through the census returns etc.
Looking at my Old Ordnance Survey Map of 1895 it gives no clues at all about a Victoria Terrace, but if you count up the buildings between Thomas Street to where it merges with Charlotte Street there are indeed 23 properties, and if it was number 1 on the corner of Thomas Street and number 23 by the Town Hall then I THINK 128a Fowler Street and 20 Victoria Terrace are the same building.
I had thought those building had been erected between 1891 & 1901, but not a bit of it they go back to at least the 1871 census. Ref: RG10/5030 Folio 21, page 35, Westoe District 8.
The people living at number 23 are quite interesting in 1871 - Leonard Armstrong, aged 46 from Wark in Northumberland a Surgeon in Practice, and living next door at number 22 was, I am guessing, his younger brother Joseph Forster Armstrong also a Surgeon in Practice. Ten years later in 1881 Joseph has moved into number 23, and he is still there in 1891 having remarried but now has 1 son, 5 daughters, and four servants. Again here I am guessing but I should think that it the house right on the point of what is/was Fowler Street - Charlotte Street.
In 1891 at number 22 Victoria Terrace it looks like there is a school run by 3 sisters called Stewart. The eldest Alice Mary is a Schoolmistress at a private school employing her younger sister Henrietta Louise, and also living there is a governess from Scotland, Edith Gray, cook Sarah Potts and housemaid Dorothy Atkinson.
The 1901 census gives business such as Ironmonger (working at home) Fruit & Poultry Dealer, Grocer, Draper, Glass & China Merchants so definitely a main shopping street.
I have not been back to South Shields since last summer (2008), which was just after "Chase Homes" opened. I did ask them if I could go up their new spiral staircase into my old home, but due to 'Health and Safety Regulations' and some planning rules I was not allowed to go up stairs. To say I was disappointed is putting it mildly after a 300 mile journey! To think as a toddler I played on the balcony above the shops with my dolls, and now I am stopped by health and safety from going up a staircase! Um!
Also it was news to me that Beach Road was called Ogle Terrace, because again my 1895 map names it as Bent House Lane. I am sure they keep changing things just to keep us on our toes when researching.
Thank You so much for that gem of information, it has put a whole new light on my old home.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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snackdahl
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Glad to have been able to help Patsy, it was nice to the repay the help you have given me several times 
The end building on the corner of Beach Road and Fowler Street still has the Ogle Terrace sign directly above the newer Beach Road sign. These are also still visible along Westoe Road and Ocean Road where almost every block seems to have a different name?
Here's Victoria Terrace in 1897:
No1 Miss EC Blann - ladies outfitter
No2 T Alexander - boot dealer
No3 GS Giles - hairdresser
No4 T Willis - grocer
No5 Mrs A Edwards - fancy repository
No6 CC Smith & Co - grocers (Mrs E Weddell register ofc)
No7 Mrs S Weinberg - frntr baker
No8 Morris & Co - milliners (friends meeting house)
No9 Mrs MA Softley - fruiterer
No10 JT Dagleas - plumber
No11 M&E Atkinson - fancy repository
No12 T Storey - brushmaker
No13 T Humphries - fruiterer
No15 Sutcliffe & Page LDS - dental surgeons (Miss EC Blann - ladies outfitter)
No16 Mrs MA Haggerston - draper
No17 GF Tate LDS - dental surgeon
No18 R Hodge - picture framer
No19 Miss J Davison - fruiterer
No20a JR Gallon - butcher
No21 J Taylor & Co - spirit merchants
No21a A Ellis - chemists
No22 Misses Stewart - school
No23 JF Armstrong - surgeon
Regards,
Rob.
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Hi Rob,
Thanks for the list of residents in 1897. I think it was the Blann family who lived at 20 Victoria Terrace in 1901, so although their shop was down the road at number 1 they lived a few doors away. Mrs. Marian Blann was a widow who was born in Slinfold, Sussex and according to the census return worked with her daughter Elizabeth. Her younger daughter Ellen was a dentist clerk on the census return so she only had to walk to number 15. Mr. Henry Blann had been a mariner at sea but must have died sometime between the census returns of 1891 & 1901.
Now I am going to try something new - actually posting a photograph - fingers crossed it works. It should be a postcard of Westoe Lane, taken I think from outside St. Bede's Church, but it is looking towards Victoria Terrace/Fowler Street. It has a 1926 postmark on the back. It is the only photo taken from that angle I have ever found - there must be more out there somewhere!
I have a couple more photos of the corner of Fowler Street & Beach Road/Ogle Terrace taken from the flat, but I will try my hand with just one photo to start with!!!!!
I hope you other RootsChatters with interest in the South Shields area find it helpful.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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Patsy Beech
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 266
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Hi Folks,
Flushed with my success of putting up a picture I will now try the other pictures showing the Town Hall and the corner of Beach Road / Ogle Terrace taken from the balcony of 128a Fowler Street. The oldest one was taken by my Dad about 1949/1950 at about the time we first moved there. You will notice how high the wall is around the corner, but no sign of any 'street furniture' to clutter the scene. The second one does not mean the Town Hall is falling down!!!!! I was trying to get the ship on the top of the tower into the picture, but failed! Well I had just been given the camera as a present so I was experimenting!!!!! The photo was taken about 1960/1, and still no clutter about the streets. The junction looks quite different now as traffic is directed up Beach Road at a set of lights instead of going straight down Folwer Street. It has certainly made Fowler Street quieter than I ever remember it, but it also looks like trade has suffered.
From the list posted by Rob for Victoria Terrace in 1897 has anyone spotted some family members? It would be nice to know if his information was useful to others.
Well enough rambling let's see if I can press the corrected buttons for a second time!!!!
Good Luck to you all with your family searching.
Patsy
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All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBarnes, Berry, Curry, Freeman, Jeffels, Nipper, Robson, Shiel, Stokell, Thompson, Urquhart, (County Durham) Elstob, Fidler, Hunter, Strong (Northumberland) Acus, Bayes, Beech, Bell, Bird, Blaskett, Blatchly, Byatt, Daly, Farmer, Fricker, Hartelbury, Voullaire-Campbell (London) Berry, Graham, Urquhart (Scotland) Thompson, McCullough (County Down, Ireland) |
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Westoe_Lane_South_Shields_1926.jpg