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Topic: To London from Germany....and back again? (Read 1496 times)
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carol8353
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5811
My two gorgeous grandsons
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I have recently discovered that one of my ancestors Lydia Rapkin married Eugene FIRNKORN (son of Herman Firnkorn) in Marylebone in Dec 1905.
He was a chef.In March 1907 their son Emil Eugene was born.
Then they vanish.The surname just does not exists any more over here.
I have just heard from another family member that her elderley aunt recalls them being 'deported' in WW1,and Lydia being stoned by German women,presumably for being a British girl marrying a German man.
How can I find 1, where Eugene came from originally? and 2, where did they go to? Back to Germany? Or somewhere else? Would the whole family have been interred, including a child born in 1907?
All suggestions gratefully received 
Carol
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRogers, Rapkin, Phillips - Hammersmith/Fulham/Paddington areas Worth Bailey, Heapy, Burgess. All Macclesfield Cheshire Mockridge,West Monkton Somerset Jenner,Clapham Surrey Kendrick,Liverpool Wensley,Somerset Coleman and Mc Namara from Ennis, Co Clare, Ireland Blake and Maloney from Kilbaha Co Clare, Ireland |
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Rena
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 899
James McCarthy
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Hi,
I suggest you look in the modern German white page phone book on this webpage and click on English version. Enter your surname in the lefthand box which asks for "Name/place/no. and click on search/suchen. About 26 names with their address, phone nos. will come up.
http://www.dastelefonbuch.de/
The address contains a number (rather like our zip codes)instead of a town/district/ort and unfortunately I'm not up on these but if you click on each surname you will see the next page has a facility to click on a map for the address. I suggest you make a list of each name and from the maps find out which district/town has the highest number of your surname. With luck this will be the original town of origin for your ancesters. You then have to find the area archives for the area you have chosen and you'll have to Google for church archives/'kirchen archives' or 'genealogie'. Often it's a large church diocese which houses them.
Good luck
Rena - searching in Kingdom of Hannover
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Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
Leith area: Mason, Telford, Darling, Cruikshanks, Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke
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carol8353
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5811
My two gorgeous grandsons
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Rena
Thanks for the suggestions.
I'll try it, and see what it tells me.
All the best
Carol
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRogers, Rapkin, Phillips - Hammersmith/Fulham/Paddington areas Worth Bailey, Heapy, Burgess. All Macclesfield Cheshire Mockridge,West Monkton Somerset Jenner,Clapham Surrey Kendrick,Liverpool Wensley,Somerset Coleman and Mc Namara from Ennis, Co Clare, Ireland Blake and Maloney from Kilbaha Co Clare, Ireland |
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Rena
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 899
James McCarthy
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My gt.grandfather was born 1845 in what is now Saxony, Germany, arriving here mid 1860's and upon his marriage to a Yorkshire woman automatically was able to call himself a British Subject which can be seen against many names on census entries. All four of his sons born between 1876 - 1894 in Yorkshire were conscripted into the British army & one was killed in action 1918 and their immigrant father had to report daily to the local police station. However, a cousin of the boys was interned in Knockaloe. I heard this story when I was young and now that I have taken up genealogy I realise the reason behind this was that the English born cousin did not have any English forebears/lineage and the fact that some of his family had lived in England over 40 years didn't amount to much.
Rena
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Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
Leith area: Mason, Telford, Darling, Cruikshanks, Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke
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carol8353
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5811
My two gorgeous grandsons
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Thanks for that website Jorose. I know that the family moved to Germany when war borke out- not sure of exactly the year,but a relation recalls her motehr getting letters to say that her sister Lydia was being stoned by German women if she went out in the street.
What a horrible lifestyle- and all cos she fell in love.Their son, of course born here in 1907, would have been British I assume?
Carol
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRogers, Rapkin, Phillips - Hammersmith/Fulham/Paddington areas Worth Bailey, Heapy, Burgess. All Macclesfield Cheshire Mockridge,West Monkton Somerset Jenner,Clapham Surrey Kendrick,Liverpool Wensley,Somerset Coleman and Mc Namara from Ennis, Co Clare, Ireland Blake and Maloney from Kilbaha Co Clare, Ireland |
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Rena
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 899
James McCarthy
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In those days father was the legal guardian. I suppose it's something else to research!
good luck,
Rena
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Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
Leith area: Mason, Telford, Darling, Cruikshanks, Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke
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loo
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1241
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Your story is very interesting. You might, when you have time, find some interesting reading in the bibliography I have posted on WW1 internments: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,112434.0.html
It is my understanding that men could never gain citizenship by marrying British women during the 19th C., but that many of them chose to pretend they had acquired it by listing themselves as British Subjects on census forms (no verification of the information they reported was required for the census). If I could lay my hands on the source of this information, I would happily give it to you! However, the version of the immigration act which was current at the time would be the authority. Kew claims that all naturalisations during this period are recorded there, but there are many more people listed as naturalised on the census than have records at the PRO, including some of my own rellies. The fact that Rena's ggf had to report regularly demonstrates that he was an alien, not a naturalised Brit, as far as I know.
It's true that the women also lost their citizenship automatically, and also lived with restrictions, but I don't know of any being interned. The book on St. Stephen's House discusses the plight of the wives and children at some length in Chapters 7 and 8.
I can't account for the cousin being interned, except if he was considered to be of an age where he could be militarily useful but was still living in his father's household and therefore could be seen to be subject to his father's will. They did not bother with male children who were not old enough to fight.
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« Last Edit: Thursday 06 July 06 22:53 UTC (UK) by loo »
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ARMSTRONG - Castleton Scot, Westminster Twp
BARFIELD - Nailsea & NL
BRAKE - Nailsea
BURIATTE
CANDY - M'sex, Deptford
CLIFFORD - Maidstone
DURE(E) - France, Devon, Canada
HALLS - Chigwell
KREIN
LEOPOLD - Hanover, London
LATTIMER - lightermen
MAXWELL - lightermen
MEYER - Lauenstein
MURRAY - Scot.borders
STEWART - Chelsea; Reach
SWANICK - Co.Mayo & Roscommon; Ontario
WEST - Rochester & Maidstone
WILLIS - Wilts, Berks, Hants, London
WOODHOUSE - Bristol, London
WW1 internments
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throckenholt
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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I have one where the husband came over from Hanover in the 1870s, married an English girl and had kids in London - he died in 1909. In 1915 she (the wife) was renaturalised - she lost her nationality when she married - mainly because of the stigma of being "German" and all her sons were on active service with teh British Army at the time.
Her naturalisation papers were available through the national archive service - so that may be a place to check if there are any details of deportation. I thought they interned German nationals - hadn't heard they deported them (could they do that - given they were at war with the other country at the time ?).
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loo
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1241
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Yes, they definitely deported them. However, it took several years of dickering about how they were going to do it before they actually deported them. You are quite right that it would have been difficult to send them directly to Germany. The first deportations occurred in October 1918, on Dutch vessels, to Rotterdam, in The Netherlands. (J.C. Bird, Control of Enemy Alien Civilians in Great Britain 1914-1918. London: Garland Publishing, 1986. p.189ff.)
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« Last Edit: Thursday 06 July 06 18:35 UTC (UK) by loo »
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ARMSTRONG - Castleton Scot, Westminster Twp
BARFIELD - Nailsea & NL
BRAKE - Nailsea
BURIATTE
CANDY - M'sex, Deptford
CLIFFORD - Maidstone
DURE(E) - France, Devon, Canada
HALLS - Chigwell
KREIN
LEOPOLD - Hanover, London
LATTIMER - lightermen
MAXWELL - lightermen
MEYER - Lauenstein
MURRAY - Scot.borders
STEWART - Chelsea; Reach
SWANICK - Co.Mayo & Roscommon; Ontario
WEST - Rochester & Maidstone
WILLIS - Wilts, Berks, Hants, London
WOODHOUSE - Bristol, London
WW1 internments
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carol8353
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5811
My two gorgeous grandsons
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Now that is interesting- I wonder where they stayed in the meantime?
No wonder my cousin tells the story of her rellie being stoned in London during the war for marrying a German man. Sounds like she had many years of it before being allowed out to move on to his homeland.
No wonder they chose never to come back.
Carol
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRogers, Rapkin, Phillips - Hammersmith/Fulham/Paddington areas Worth Bailey, Heapy, Burgess. All Macclesfield Cheshire Mockridge,West Monkton Somerset Jenner,Clapham Surrey Kendrick,Liverpool Wensley,Somerset Coleman and Mc Namara from Ennis, Co Clare, Ireland Blake and Maloney from Kilbaha Co Clare, Ireland |
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throckenholt
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 351
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In London I think I heard lots of the men were kept at the Crystal Palace.
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Rena
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 899
James McCarthy
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Your story is very interesting. You might, when you have time, find some interesting reading in the bibliography I have posted on WW1 internments: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,112434.0.html It is my understanding that men could never gain citizenship by marrying British women during the 19th C., but that many of them chose to pretend they had acquired it by listing themselves as British Subjects on census forms (no verification of the information they reported was required for the census). If I could lay my hands on the source of this information, I would happily give it to you! However, the version of the immigration act which was current at the time would be the authority. Kew claims that all naturalisations during this period are recorded there, but there are many more people listed as naturalised on the census than have records at the PRO, including some of my own rellies. The fact that Rena's ggf had to report regularly demonstrates that he was an alien, not a naturalised Brit, as far as I know. It's true that the women also lost their citizenship automatically, and also lived with restrictions, but I don't know of any being interned. The book on St. Stephen's House discusses the plight of the wives and children at some length in Chapter 7. I can't account for the cousin being interned, except if he was considered to be of an age where he could be militarily useful but was still living in his father's household and therefore could be seen to be subject to his father's will. They did not bother with male children who were not old enough to fight.
Rena
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Logged
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Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
Leith area: Mason, Telford, Darling, Cruikshanks, Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke
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loo
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1241
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That's very interesting. I had assumed, from some previous correspondence with Kew, that they were telling me that they did hold all (or virtually all) naturalization records. But I have re-read their response, and see that it is not really clear. I am going to ask again.
With reference to one of the other things I said above, here is part of a note I received a few months ago from Janet Dempsey at the National Archives:
"Naturalisation was an expensive process which was not necessary for normal residence in this country. The vast majority of immigrants did not naturalise at all. Sometimes a census will give the information 'naturalised British' or similar. It is not always the case that the subject actually went through the legal process of naturalisation."
In an earlier email, she said this:
"All naturalisations up to 1935 are searchable by name on the catalogue. It should be borne in mind that not all of the people who claimed to have been naturalised actually had gone through the legal procedure. This is particularly true where a census states 'naturalised'."
I think that for now we must conclude that if there is no record, then we simply don't know whether they were naturalised or not, but the odds are that they were not (given the costs and lack of documentation.).
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ARMSTRONG - Castleton Scot, Westminster Twp
BARFIELD - Nailsea & NL
BRAKE - Nailsea
BURIATTE
CANDY - M'sex, Deptford
CLIFFORD - Maidstone
DURE(E) - France, Devon, Canada
HALLS - Chigwell
KREIN
LEOPOLD - Hanover, London
LATTIMER - lightermen
MAXWELL - lightermen
MEYER - Lauenstein
MURRAY - Scot.borders
STEWART - Chelsea; Reach
SWANICK - Co.Mayo & Roscommon; Ontario
WEST - Rochester & Maidstone
WILLIS - Wilts, Berks, Hants, London
WOODHOUSE - Bristol, London
WW1 internments
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loo
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1241
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Now that is interesting- I wonder where they stayed in the meantime?
No wonder my cousin tells the story of her rellie being stoned in London during the war for marrying a German man. Sounds like she had many years of it before being allowed out to move on to his homeland.
No wonder they chose never to come back.
Carol
The answer to where they stayed is quite varied. I am trying to compile a list of the various places where they stayed, but have only fragmentary info at this time. I believe that the Crystal Palace was indeed a site.
During both wars, there was an issue about where to house them. The government of the day was very eager to pick them up, but less clear about where to put them. Some even ended up on individual farms, rather than in camps per se. The major camp on the Isle of Man was formerly a holiday camp, hastily converted.
Violence towards Germans in Britain, especially in the cities, was widespread, particularly strong immediately following the Lusitania incident in May 1915. If you check the newspapers in the area where they were living, especially the smaller community papers (if they were in a big city), you may find quite a bit of information, especially if your rellie was a small-businessperson, as many businesses were ransacked or torched. It was illegal to "trade with the enemy", so most Germans in Britain lost their businesses. The articles and books by Panikos Panayi listed on my bibliography make for very interesting reading on this topic. He is a British scholar with Cypriot roots at de Montfort University, and these resources are well-researched.
I am not sure if the stoning to which you refer occurred in Britain or in Germany. But sometimes the British women who had married Germans (my ggm did it twice!) were seen as traitors by other Brits. Many wives, who had been living in decent circumstances before the war, were reduced to utter poverty and dependence on charity when their husbands were interned or their businesses destroyed. Many had to abandon homes they could no longer afford, but had great difficulty finding alternative accommodation because landlords would shun them because of their German surnames. Beginning in Nov.1914, several weeks after the round-ups began, the women (in London at least; less in outlying areas) received a government allowance of 10s + 1s 6d for each child; during the course of the war this was raised somewhat. (all of this from the book on St. Stephen's House.)
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ARMSTRONG - Castleton Scot, Westminster Twp
BARFIELD - Nailsea & NL
BRAKE - Nailsea
BURIATTE
CANDY - M'sex, Deptford
CLIFFORD - Maidstone
DURE(E) - France, Devon, Canada
HALLS - Chigwell
KREIN
LEOPOLD - Hanover, London
LATTIMER - lightermen
MAXWELL - lightermen
MEYER - Lauenstein
MURRAY - Scot.borders
STEWART - Chelsea; Reach
SWANICK - Co.Mayo & Roscommon; Ontario
WEST - Rochester & Maidstone
WILLIS - Wilts, Berks, Hants, London
WOODHOUSE - Bristol, London
WW1 internments
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