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Topic: RULE,BRYANT,REED,& BRAY (Read 3532 times)
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tbennett54
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've had another look at my RULE data. I don't think there's much doubt that John Rule who was baptised 18 Feb 1732/33 was the son of John RULE (b 1694) and Mary PERKING, who married in 1720. He seems the likely candidate for marrying Catherine BRYANT. I don't think it's John, baptised 26 Dec 1719, son of Johnson RULE (b 1696) and (?) Catherine, as this John seems to have married Anne HOCKING on 1 Mar 1745/46 in Camborne and had numerous children right up to 1772 (the last named being yet another Johnson).
These RULEs all come from the same common ancestor, Johnson RULE (c 1663-1723), son of Johnson RULE (1629-83) and Rebecca VEALE. Johnson "junior" married twice, first Elizabeth JAMES on 7 May 1687 in Camborne, and then Mary PEARSE on 24 February 1706/07 in Camborne. John b 1694 and Johnson b 1696 were two of his sons.
The full (?) crop is: Richard (1687-bef 1700), Blanche (1690), Elizabeth (1692), John (1694-1763), Johnson (1696-1772), Richard (1700-02), Stephen (1702-78), and from the 2nd marriage James (1708-70) and Henry (1711-72). I have Henry's son John (1743/44 - ) marrying Clarinda ELLIS in 1765.
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2306
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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As I see things at the moment the possibilities for John RULE /Catherine BRYANT are
Robert d 1619---left a Will
Line 1 Line 2
James = Jane WATERS or (2 John=Margory
Richard=Jane WEAREN (2 Johnson=Rebecca VEALE
James=Jane ? (2 Johnson=ElizabethJAMES/Mary PEARSE
John(1709)=Jane WILLIAMS (2 John(1694)= Mary PERKING
John18 Feb 1733 s John (2 John (25 Feb 1726 Camborne)
Or John 15Jul 1732 Gwennap or 1 Jan 1731 Gwinear both f John no mother!
Any comments?
Trees
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi all
Sorry for the delay in replying - I've been away for work.
Here's what I have on the John RULE who m Clarinda ELLIS:
1812 Nov 26: ENG CON Camborne: will: "In the name of God amen. I John Rule of the parish of Camborne in the County of Cornwall yeoman who am at this time of a sound mind, memory and understanding. And after renouncing all former wills, legacies, and bequests by me made, given or bequeathed do ratify and confirm this alone to be my last will and testament. First I give to my son John Rule (now residing in the parish of Gwinear, in the said county) and to my daughter Jane the wife of James Thomas (now of the parish of Saint Erth, also in the said County), the sum of two pound (each) of good and lawful money of Great Britain and Ireland, but payable in Great Britain to be paid them respectively out of my estate, goods, chattels and effects, at or before the end of three months after my decease. Second, all the remainder of my estate, goods, chattels, valuables and effects, of what nature of kind so ever or wheresoever, which shall belong or in any wise appertain to me at the time of my decease (after my legal debts, decent funeral charges, and legacies aforesaid are paid) I give and bequeath unto my son Johnson Rule of the aforesaid parish of Camborne, whom I also make, constitute and appoint the sole executor of this my last will and testament. Third, it is further my will that this my last will and testament may be publicly read in the presence of all my children (who shall attend at my then late dwelling house for that purpose) at or before the end of four days after my decease. In witness whereof I have hereunto put my hand and seal this twenty sixth day of November in the year of our Lord Christ one thousand eight hundred and twelve. Signed sealed published and declared by the said John Rule (the testator) to be his last will and testament in the presence of us. Anne Gribbell, John Gribbell. The mark or sign of John Rule." [4597] [5492].
1816 May 16: ENG CON Camborne: probate: "Will of John Rule yeoman deceased proved in common form before Nicks Phillips clerk, Bachelor of Laws, Surrogate etc and administration of all and singular the goods etc of the said deceased or any way concerning the said will was and is granted to Johnson Rule the son of the said deceased and sole executor named in the said will, being first sworn etc, saving etc, no inventory, stamp 10 shillings, No 86 P62" [4597] [5492] [NB09/019].
1816: ENG CON Camborne: Parish burial register transcript says aged 86 years (therefore born ca 1730).
1816: ENG CON Camborne: monumental inscription index [1260].
To be continued...
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Continued from previous message:
I think that this John RULE is son of John RULE and Mary PERKING.
John and Clarinda's children were:
1 Jane RULE bapt 3 May 1767 Camborne m 18 Jun 1791 Camborne to James THOMAS farmer and copper miner bapt 20 Nov 1763 (my line)
2 John RULE tinner bapt 4 Feb 1770 Camborne m 20 Sep 1794 Camborne to Elizabeth RULE b ca 1775 (who were her parents?)
3 Johnson RULE bapt 26 Apr 1772 Camborne buried 28 Jul 1777 Camborne
4 Stephen RULE bapt 3 Jul 1774 Camborne buried 26 Mar 1796 Camborne
5 James RULE bapt 4 Aug 1776 Camborne buried 24 May 1800 Camborne
6 Johnson RULE farmer bapt 5 Nov 1780 Camborne died 14 Jul 1854 Camborne m 12 Aug 1809 Camborne to Elizabeth JEWEL b ca 1788 Illogan
As for the Henry RULE who m Mary BORLACE, I have him as son of Johnson RULE and Mary PEARSE:
Henry RULE
bapt 11 Mar 1711 Camborne bur 27 Jun 1772 Camborne
m 24 Dec 1731 Camborne to Mary BORLACE
issue as follows:
1 Catherine RULE bapt 13 Aug 1732 Camborne possible m 1768 to John RICHARDS
2 James RULE bapt 11 Jan 1736 Camborne bur 10 Jun 1735 or 1736 Camborne (but I'm not sure of this one)
3 Johnson RULE bapt 15 Apr 1739 Camborne with 3 possible marriages 1762 to Catherine LEE, 1763 to Thamasin REMFRY and 1772 to Margery HETHYER
4 Mary RULE bapt 28 Mar 1742 Camborne with possible marriages 1761 by licence to William BENNATTS and 1773 to John BOWDEN
5 John RULE bapt 18 Mar 1744 Camborne bur 26 Mar 1765 Camborne
6 Thomas RULE bapt 19 Feb 1749 Camborne bur 20 Feb 1748/1749 Camborne
7 Richard RULE bapt 25 Mar 1750 Camborne with possible marriage at St Hilary 1775 to Jane TILLY
8 Elisabeth RULE bapt 18 Mar 1753 Camborne
9 Thomas RULE bapt 26 Dec 1757 Camborne
Henry had a full brother too:
James RULE bapt 13 Nov 1708 Camborne bur 18 Jan 1770 Camborne
m 9 Nov 1730 Camborne to Constance FOOT bur 14 Apr 1762 Camborne
Jane RULE bapt 26 Aug 1744 could be their daughter?
As for children of John RULE and Mary PERKING, I have the following:
1 Elizabeth RULE bapt 8 Sep 1722 Gwinear possible m 1748 to James BARTLE
2 Mary RULE bapt 29 Mar 1725 Camborne bur 6 Dec 1790 Camborne m 1760 John THOMAS (ca 1730-ca1784) and had three children
3 Johnson RULE bapt 25 Feb 1727 Camborne
4 Jane RULE bapt 20 Jul 1729 Camborne must have died pre 1736?
5 John RULE yeoman bapt 5 Jan 1731 Gwinear died 9 Mar 1816 Camborne bur 10 Mar 1816 Camborne m 11 May 1765 Camborne to Clarinda ELLIS bapt 6 Jan 1738 Ludgvan bur 7 Jun 1810 Camborne (d/o Robert ELLIS & Jane CHELEW) and had the children listed above
6 Anne RULE bapt 4 Mar 1732 Gwinear bur 26 Mar 1747 Camborne
7 Stephen RULE bapt 16 Apr 1734 Camborne
8 Jane RULE bapt 18 Jul 1736 Camborne bur 31 Jul 1742 Camborne aka Jone ?
9 Richard RULE bapt 21 Feb 1739 Camborne bur 24 Feb 1738 Camborne (need to check bapt and burial dates!)
10 Hannah RULE bapt 1 Jan 1741 Camborne
So, I can see where this disagrees with tbennets comments, but question is, how can it be sorted out?
Cheers
Peter
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi, me again,
Just noticed the mention of the Illogan RULES (also ancestors of mine). Here's what I have on that line:
James RULE b ca 1570
probably/possibly father of
1 Elizabeth RULE bapt 8 Mar 1599 St Stephen's by Launceston
2 James RULE (see below)
3 Johan RULE bapt 30 Aug 1601 St Stephen's by Launceston
James RULE b ca 1601 bur 24 Nov 1657 Camborne
m 23 Sep 1623 Camborne to Jane WATERS bur 15 Apr 1673 Camborne
issue
1 James RULE bapt 2 May 1624 Camborne bur 11 Sep 1659 Camborne m 1655 Camborne to Jane BRYANT and had issue
2 Francis RULE bapt 9 Oct 1625 Camborne bur 18 Dec 1692 Camborne m 1671 Elizabeth GILBERTE
3 Richard RULE bapt 4 Apr 1630 Camborne bur 10 Feb 1706 Camborne m 1658 Camborne to Jane WEARNE bur 17 Aug 1721 Camborne and had issue
4 Johane RULE bapt 4 Aug 1633 Camborne
5 Katherine RULE bapt 4 Aug 1633 Camborne bur 5 Feb 1635 Camborne
6 Christopher RULE (see below)
7 Robert RULE bapt 17 May 1640 Camborne bur 10 Jan 1675 Camborne
Christopher RULE bapt 14 Feb 1637 Camborne bur 12 Jan 1698 Camborne
m 1 Nov 1659 Camborne to Joane STEVENS bur 31 Mar 1703 Camborne
issue
1 Christopher RULE (see below)
2 James RULE bapt 8 Mar 1663 Camborne
3 Francis RULE bapt 8 Oct 1665 Camborne m 1693 Amy
4 Peter RULE bapt 12 Sep 1668 Camborne bur 14 Feb 1718 Camborne m 1703 Illogan to Elizabeth and had issue
5 Ann RULE bapt 19 Aug 1671 Camborne
Christopher RULE born (?) 25 Sep 1660 Camborne died 1715 m (i) 1687 Illogan to Christian (surname not known) m (ii) 1701 Camborne to Alice bur 1732 Camborne, issue to first wife
1 Ann RULE bapt 5 Oct 1690 Camborne
2 Christopher RULE (see below)
3 Grace RULE bapt Apr 1695 Illogan
Christopher RULE "of Illogan" bapt 12 Feb 1693 Camborne m 15 Apr 1721 Camborne to Elizabeth SOUDEN
1 Elizabeth RULE b ca 1721 (?)
2 Frances RULE bapt Jan 1721 Illogan (died in infancy?)
3 Christopher RULE bapt Feb 1722 Illogan
4 Ann RULE bapt 5 Jan 1726 Illogan
5 John RULE (see below)
6 Frances RULE bapt 10 Apr 1732 Illogan
7 James RULE bapt 18 Aug 1734 Illogan
John RULE bapt 3 Aug 1729 Illogan died ca 1784 Illogan m 1 Feb 1750 Illogan to Jane BAUDEN bapt 26 Apr 1730 d/o Thomas & Elizabeth BAUDEN
1 John RULE bapt 25 Mar 1753 Illogan
2 Elizabeth RULE bapt 30 Nov 1755 Illogan m 27 Oct 1781 Illogan to James SAMPSON bapt 18 Jan 1746 Illogan and had issue
3 Jane RULE (see below)
4 Thomas RULE bapt 30 Sep 1764 Illogan m 26 Dec 1793 Illogan to Mary BRAY bapt 20 Feb 1774 Illogan and had numerous issue
5 James RULE tinner bapt 15 Mar 1767 Illogan m 21 Jun 1791 Camborne to Elizabeth JAMES and had issue
6 Christopher RULE bapt 28 Oct 1769 Illogan m (i) 28 Feb 1796 Illogan to Anne BRAY (1776-ca 1805) and had issue m (ii) 9 Apr 1808 Illogan to Elizabeth BROWN and had further issue
Jane RULE bapt 26 Feb 1758 Illogan m 22 Jan 1780 Illogan to Thomas THOMAS bapt 22 Oct 1752 Illogan s/o John & Anne THOMAS
one of their children was
Richard THOMAS miner bapt 8 Jul 1792 Illogan bur 14 Dec 1829 Illogan m 17 Sep 1815 Illogan to Alice DUNSTAN bapt 5 Nov 1793 Camborne died after 1851, one of their children was
Elizabeth THOMAS ore dresser bapt 18 May 1816 Illogan m 20 Oct 1849 Illogan to James PAULL (1829-1895).
This last couple came to Australia 1857 and are my gg grandparents.
I am truly blessed with RULES in my tree! Joy!
Peter
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tbennett54
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Peter
You are utterly convincing. I've seen quite enough erroneous Mormon submissions to feel perfectly happy abandoning their claim that Clarinda Ellis married the 1744 John Rule. I accept John son of John and Mary Perking is our man here. But given that he was baptised in Gwinear, then who is the John baptised in Camborne on 18 Feb 1732/33? The PRs just say "son of John". I suppose he must be the son of John b 1709 and Jane Williams. It certainly fits. (This is the John who probably married Catherine Bryant although there is still the mysterious Gwennap one of 1732 to account for!)
The "John" son of John and Mary Perking in 1726/27 is actually Johnson of course, so he is out of the running.
Are you sure about Johnson Rule bapt 26 Apr 1772 as belonging to John and Clarinda, by the way? I had him down as belonging to John Rule and Jenefer Huddy (m 1763 Camborne). No idea who that John is. The IGI has John and Clarinda having a daughter Elizabeth bapt 7 Jun 1772.
I have some ideas about Johnson RULE bapt 15 Apr 1739, and his namesake of the same year, having tried to untangle their marriages, if you're interested, but we may have reached Rule Overkill now!
What is it with these Rules? They only relate to my branches by marriage......
best wishes
Tony
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi
I'm glad someone is convinced - I'm having trouble convincing myself!
There is still the claim of researcher Malcolm Carlson that the John RULE who m Catherine BRYANT was son of Johnson RULE (1696-1772) who m Mary. The line he claims from there is their son James RULE m Sarah REED, parents of James RULE who m Susannah SANDRY, parents of William RULE b 1819 Gwithian m 1841 Camborne to Susannah QUENTRALL. I haven't checked this claim.
I'm not sure that Johnson RULE bapt 1772 Camborne is son of John RULE and Clarinda ELLIS. Both the baptism (1772) and burial (in 1777) just say son of John RULE. The mother is not mentioned.
Re Elizabeth RULE bapt 1772, the parish register says daughter of John, mother not named. The IGI record that identifies the mother as Clarinda is a patron submission - so I'm reluctant to trust it. John RULE (who m Clarinda ELLIS) left a will (I posted it earlier), and it doesn't mention a daughter Elizabeth (not that that rules it out) <<oh, pardon the surname pun!!>>.
Re the two 1739 Johnson RULES, I have the following:
1) Johnson RULE bapt 9 Dec 1739 Camborne s/o Stephen RULE (1702-1778) & Elizabeth (d 1745). Possible marriage to Margery Hethyer & possible issue Henry Rule b1797 d 1844 Camborne m 1825 Mary Ann Corner, according to a claimant descendant. Apparently Stephen left a will, but I don't have a copy. The wife might be nee HAMPTON. And, Stephen may have married again.
2) Johnson RULE bapt 15 Apr 1739 Camborne s/o Henry RULE (1711-1772) & Mary BORLACE. Possible marriages as listed earlier (including Margery Hethyer).
Goodness knows if I have them the right way around!
I think I need to go to bed soon...
Peter
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2306
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Have a quiet sleep Peter when you wake up try to remember where you found Malcolm Carlson so I can contact him. I've Googled ever combination I can think of with no luck! My line is John/Catherine Bryant James Sarah REED Robert BRAY/ Sarah RULE At least thats what I think it is
Looks like I need to re think things back in the light of today's chats
Trees
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Trees
A little refreshed now, after a good night's sleep (with dreams of Rule descents).
In google, I entered search term as site:rootsweb.com "malcolm carlson" and came up with the following link:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CORNISH/1999-07/0931138108
The thread shows his email address, but it dates from July 1999. That's when I had contact with him too. In his emails to me, he mentioned a researcher called Bruce Rough, and another researcher that did not want to be contacted. These researchers were working on a theory that Robert RULE was the father of all succeeding Rules in the west of Cornwall, especially the Camborne - Illogan area. I quote "Although there is no absolute proof, we believe Robert was the father of Degory born somewhere between 1580 and 1590, James about 1598 Camborne, John about 1600 Camborne and Christopher about 1602 Camborne."
Re-reading Malcolm's emails, he was careful to say "I can't vouch for any of this info as I don't have backup info" - he was referring to his line from John RULE and Catherine BRYANT.
I'll leave it to you to try to contact him on that email address, but if that fails, you could try checking the online telephone directory for M Carlson somewhere in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Peter
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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RULES for Researching RULES
1 There are many RULES, so be careful to base your conclusions on good quality evidence and Rules of Deduction.
2 Some parish registers don't name the mothers of RULES, so you will need supplementary evidence.
3 RULE wills are vital, and you must obtain those relevant to your line of inquiry.
4 Always be open to new evidence and be prepared to re-arrange the RULES in your tree. In other words, be prepared to be over-ruled.
5 It can be hard to work out the RULES, so don't rule out other possibilities.
(Sorry, couldn't resist this - hope I'm not breaking the rootschat rules!)
Peter
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2306
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Well done Peter its good to wake up with a giggle
I've carefully looked through your posts for yesterday and can't see any reason not to agree just two tiny difference like you say only using Family Search extracts I have John RULe's bapt as1 Jan 1731 not 5th C025711 Gwinear 1560 - 1812
James m Jane BRIANT 2 Jan 1655 TRURO M009631
Don't make any difference to the outcome.I'm still no nearer finding the Johnwho married Catherine BRYANT in 1752 between us we seem to have ruled out all the known John RULEs
Lets see who we have
John Camborne P002071 from 1558
20 Jul 1718 son of Oliver
26 Dec 1719 son Johnson
18 Feb 1733 son of John
tbennett 54 you say "I don't think it's John, baptised 26 Dec 1719, son of Johnson RULE (b 1696) and (?) Catherine, as this John seems to have married Anne HOCKING on 1 Mar 1745/46 in Camborne and had numerous children right up to 1772 (the last named being yet another Johnson)."
There seems to be an Oliver m Katherine BENNETTS in Camborne 1707 but only patrons submissions and the only Oliver bapt is 1661 too old with out knowing his parents is it possible he m Ann Hocking Or possibly Catherine -
John 1733 would only have been 19 m Catherine I dont like him being s of John /Jane WILLIAMs as they seem to m a long time after his birth which I think is 1732/33
There are so many male RULES we haven't m off yet like what happened to James 1663s of Christopher etc I think next year we'll have to Holiday in Cornwall  we enjoyed our last holidays there!
Got to go now i'm reading in Church this morning need to prepare
Trees
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2306
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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O! O! here we go again now have a Johnson for John RULE and Catherine Bryant
ch
John 1753 Gwithian C025171 1560 – 1799 m Ann?
Johnson 29 Feb 1756 Phillack C023192
James 1759 C025171 Gwithian 1560 – 1799 m Sarah REED
Henry 1761 C025171 Gwithian 1560 – 1799
Catherine 1764 C025171 Gwithian 1560 – 1799
Catherine C025171 Gwithian 1560 – 1799
Stephen C025171 Gwithian 1560 – 1799
As you see hes quite near the top of the family suggesting being named after a grandfather! Could he be the s of Johnson bap 26 Dec 1819 and John s of Oliver m Ann HOCKING?
Any thoughts gentlemen? Will post a look up request to see who the witnesses to John/Catherine's marriage were and definitely sending for the Johnson will
Trees
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Trees and all
Apologies for my silence - have been pretty busy.
I don't have any particular comment on your last post, except to say well done finding all the baptisms. Have you had any luck with Rule wills?
Cheers
Peter
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2306
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Hi
I now have the will of Johnson 1696 and it has a few surprises
He mentions his son John daughters Elizabeth SKINNER, Rebecca SAUNDRY and Mary MARTIN and daughter Law Jone PASCOE and wife Jane!
Now from information already found I had marriages in Phillack for
John and Catherine BRYANT 1752
Mary and Joshua MARTIN 1753
Elizabeth and Charles SKINNER 1752 both of St Agnes
Johnson and Jane PASCOE of Wendron1754
and Elizabeth of Camborne and John UREN 1750
I had thought these were siblings and had dismissed the St Agnes pair in favour of the John UREN match the will proves that wrong and Johnson wasn't the brother but the father!!
Rebecca had m Samuel SAUNDRY in Gwthian in 1754
So Johnson 1696 seems to have married three times
1 to Catherine? with three daughters
Elizabeth 1722=Charles SKINNER
Catherine 1725-1728
Rebecca 1727=Samuel SAUNDRY
2 to Mary? With two children
John=Catherine BRYANT
Mary =Joshua MARTIN
3 to Jane PASCOE who already had a daughter Joan.
I'm still worried about John 1719 which Johnson was his dad? Was it him or Oliver's so John 1718 who m Ann Hocking If he was s of Johnson 1696 did he die before John=Catherine BRYANT was born? I'm unhappy with Johnson 1663 having two John's alive at the same time ditto Johnson 1696.
I wish I could find a baptism for John and Mary and or marriages for Johnson 1696 =Catherine =Mary the will makes no mention of any wife other than Jane who is the mother of Joan Pascoe.
I wrote to Malcolm Clarkson with no luck the email didn't bounce but there was no reply at all,I'd love to know if he had any baptisms and what reasons he had to thinking the second wife was infact a Mary.
Trees
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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Hello fellow Rule researchers,
I am the descendant of Catherine RULE chr 27 Nov 1768, Gwithian, daughter of John RULE & Catherine BRYANT. I have lots of info on this lady, who married George BENNETTS in 1791, Illogan if anyone would like it.
I am thoroughly confused as to the parentage of John RULE. I had thought that John was born 1 Jan 1731 & chr 5 Jan 1731 Gwinear, son of John. I see there is also the thought he might be b. 1719, Camborne & be the son of Johnson & Mary Pearse (though the IGI submission seems very confident that this John married Anne Hocking in 1746 in Camborne and there is certainly a John & Anne Rule in Camborne in the 1750's having children).
So the question is what is the evidence for John, husband of Catherine Bryant, various birth date options?
1719 (son of Johnson & Mary Pearse)
1726 (son of John & Mary Perking)
1731 (son of John, Gwinear)
any more?
Any thoughts as to how to narrow this down?
Cheers,
Trix
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