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Topic: RULE,BRYANT,REED,& BRAY (Read 3549 times)
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2310
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Hi Trix,
This is taking a lot of sorting I too had thought or John=Catherine BRYANT was the 1731 Gwinear one but as you can see peterpjw's reply 17 he has the will for Clarinda Ellis' John and his death proves him to be born 1731. I have found a John 1718 s of Oliver (and possibly Katherine BENNETT in Camborne as well as the 1719 John s of Johnson. At the moment I'm inclined to think that the tree looks like this which I hasten to add needs checking out (I hope we can holiday in Cornwall next summer)
Robert -1619 I have his will but its Latin! and I haven't had it translated yet.
John RULE 1606=Marjory?
Johnson RULE1629-1683=Rebecca Veal
Johnson RULE 1663-1723=i)Elizabeth JAMES
7 children Richard 1687 Blanch 1690 Elizabeth 1692 John 1694=Mary PERKING Johnson 1696-1772 Richard 1700-1702 Stephen 1702
=ii)Mary Pearse
James 1708
Henry 1711
Stephen 1713-1778=Elizabeth HAMPTON (we also have his will)
Johnson 1696-1772=i) ? a Mary or Catherine maybe, but no wedding has been found nor is there a mother mentioned on the baptisms found!! I have his will in which he mentions his wife Jane and daughterlaw (which meant step daughter at that time) Jone Pascoe
Now I believe that his children are ;
John 1719 = Catherine BRYANT? 8 Feb 1752 Phillack s John mentioned in the will
Elizabeth 1772=Charles SKINNER 25 Feb 1752 Phillack mentioned in the will
Catherine 1725-1728
Rebecca 1727= Samuel SAUNDRY 8 Feb 1754 Gwithian mentioned in the will
Mary (no bapt found)= Joshua MARTIN 31 May 1753 Phillack mentioned in the will
all except Mary were baptised in Camborne and Johnson =Jane PASCOE (don't know her maiden name but she has a PASCOE daughter) 28 Jan 1754 Phillack mentioned in the will.
Now this is different from other researchers and as I say will need to be checked but it leaves Johnson 1663 with only one John. If John 1719 is son of Mary PEARSE he would have two alive at the same time! My arrangement overcomes this. We need to find a death of a Stephen between 1702-1713 will ask for a look up on the board, and it would mean Ann Hocking m John s of Oliver
The big stumbling block is the age difference for John and Catherine BRYANT so we need to find his death and/or a MI to clarify his age.Again I'll ask if anyone can do a look up or hope to turn something up next year!!!
Any way that's how I have interpreted the situation hope you can follow it all I hope to get it all on our web site this autumn-
We are busy visiting Warwick,Oxford and Northampton on data gathering missions this summer and are desperately trying to sort out what we are looking for at each location,
Any comments will be welcome,
Trees.
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2310
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Another possibility!!
I also have the Will of Stephen 1702
Stephen 1702-1778=Elizabeth HAMPTON bap in St Erth
Grace 1728-172 bap in St Erth
Elizabeth 1729 =John UREN 2 Jun 1750 Phillack bap in St Erth
Johnson 1738-1738 bap Camborne
Johnson 1739 bap Camborne
Henry 1735-1746 bap Camborne
James 1744 bap Camborne
John and Cathrine BRYANT
John 1753= Ann?
Johnson 1756
James 1759 =Sarah REED
Henry 1781
Catherine 1764
Catherine 1768
Stephen 1771-1776
Now you can see a similarity between the children's names and a gap between Elizabeth and Johnson where a John could well fit and be a better age to be Catherine BRYANT's husband!
Now how do we solve this one? Stephen's will doesn't mention a s John!
HELP!!
Trees
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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Dear Trees,
I tried to get help from the marriage - but the Phillack OPC (very kind gentleman) only had the transcript that just has "John Rule married Catherine Bryant 8 Feb 1752, Phillack". No comment on whether they are of the parish, ages, parents etc. Certainly if anyone could check the original marriage record- there might be helpful information to be gleaned - I will do a Rootschat query...
Thanks for the steer to Peter. I have written to him about his John Rule 1731 - 1816. There is a tiny possibility that Peter's John is the b. 18 Feb 1732, Camborne son of Johson Rule & Mary Perkin, given he married Clarinda in Camborne. It makes more sense that "our" John is the Gwinear man - given his marriage, all the children & his & Catherine's possible burials are all in the Gwinear - Gwithian - Phillack area (which admittedly is only a stone's throw from Camborne!)
However, if "our" John is the Camborne 1718 man (& I like your possible lineage), I don't have a huge problem with John being mid thirties- most of my family in that area seemed to marry with men older than the women. John's daughter Catherine RULE (1768 - 1848) married 1791 age 22 to 40 year old George BENNETTS.
By the way the burial info I have:
Catherine wife of John RULE buried 29 January 1772 Gwinear (no age)
John RULE buried 2 July 1791, Gwinear - but no age or other information - so can't be sure it's "our" man!
Looking forwards to your thoughts
cheers,
Trix
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Trix, Trees and others
Trix - thanks for your private message.
I really don't have anything new to add at this stage.
The Camborne parish burial register states that John was aged 86 years. See the OPC's transcript at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~camborneopc/burials1815-1816.htm.
So, if we accept that as correct, he must have been born about 1730. Of course, the age on the burial record might be wrong.
John and Clarinda are buried in Camborne churchyard. The Index reference is CAMB 348. I think that the index was produced by Cornwall FHS from headstone inscriptions. The inscription is as follows:
"In memory of Clarinda the wife of John RULE of this Parish who departed this life the 7th of June 1810 aged 71 years".
(John's interment was not mentioned on the headstone.)
I have posted a full transcript of John's will on this chat.
The OPC's transcript of the Camborne parish baptisms has:
18 Feb 1732, John RULE son of John
There is no mention of Mary PERKIN or of Johnson on this record.
Cheers
Peter
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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Dear Peter, Trees & other Rule 'questers',
It is a cold wet day - so I am trying to sort out this John Rule thing.
Thank you Peter, I finally found the Will of John RULE b. 1730 - 10 March 1816, who married Clarinda. It is very helpful.
There is this IGI submission:
John Rule Birth: 18 FEB 1732, Cornwall, England father: Johnson Rule Mother: Mary Perkin
but the parish record is...
John Rule chr: 18 FEB 1733 Camborne, Cornwall, England father: John
Which is of course getting a bit late for "your" John
After staring at all the different John's, I am starting to think that my John, who married Catherine Bryant was born 1719, son of Johnson (1696-1772). A kind person has checked the 1752 Phillack marriage record of John & Catherine Bryant, but there is no comment on John or Catherine's parents or parish of origin to help us out.
I think "my" John died 1791 buried Gwinear (no age given), but have not been able to find a Will (which I think might be a key)
Thank you all for such a helpful & detailed discussion,
Cheers,
Trix
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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To Trees
Dear Trees,
I see you mentioned having the Will of Johnson RULE 1773. Is there any chance I could get more detail on the Will? especially keen to know more on his son John... 
Re your very original comment about Catherine BRYANT.
I have one only possible for her, but have absolutely no confirming evidence...
Catherine BRYANT chr 28 Feb 1731, Camborne, daughter of Edward.
Edward BRYANT Spouse: Anne MITCHEL 20 January 1721 by banns, Gwithian, Cornwall
possible other children
Edward son of Edward Bryant & Anne 5 November 1722 Gwithian, Cornwall
Benjamin son of Edward Bryant & Anne 17 Sept 1726 Gwithian, Cornwall
Anne BRYANT - 12Oct 1737 Gwinear burial
The bit missing is any child, grandchild called Edward or Anne, so although it certainly fits, not sure how right it is.
Cheers,
Trix
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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G'day
Me again. I, too, would like to say thanks for the detailed discussions and all the various theories and evidence put forward. It is a great way to do genealogy!
I would like to invite anyone who has a RULE will to post a full transcript (like I did for John RULE d 1816). We can all be very grateful to the Cornwall Record Office for these records, and the details will no doubt help future Rule researchers if they can be posted here.
Cheers
Peter
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peterpjw
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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So, to practice what I preach! Here's another RULE will, of 1783 Illogan:
"The last will and testament of me John Rule of the parish of Illogan in the County of Cornwall who am at this time sick and weak in body but perfect in mind and memory. And principally of all I recommend my soul into the hands of God who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried after a decent Christian manner at the discretion of my executrix hereinafter named. And as touching my worldly estate and effects I give bequeath and dispose of the same in the following manner. First I give to my daughter Elizabeth the wife of James Sampson the sum of one shilling to be paid her by my executrix at the end of three months after my decease. Also I further give to my said daughter Elizabeth the sum of ten guineas to be paid her out of my estate and effects at the end of six months after the decease of Jane my present wife. And providing my said daughter Elizabeth should not survive so long it is my will that the said sum of ten guineas shall then be the property of her surviving children and payable as aforesaid. Secondly I give to my daughter Jane the wife of Thomas Thomas the sum of one shilling to be paid her by my executrix at the end of three months after my decease. And also the further sum of ten guineas to be paid her or her surviving children at the same time and under the same restrictions that the like sum is to be paid to my aforementioned daughter Elizabeth as mentioned in the preceding clause. Thirdly I give to Jane my beloved wife whom I also appoint the executrix of this my last will and testament after my legal debts funeral charges and legacies aforesaid are paid (during her natural life providing she remains a widow so long from my decease) all every and singular the remainder of my estate and effects of what nature or kind so ever which shall be belonging or in any wise appertaining to me at the time of my decease. But under these restrictions that my said wife shall not sell alienate nor transfer all nor any part of my said estates or effects during her life and also that she my said wife shall out of my effects provide for and maintain for my three younger sons namely Thomas, James and Christopher until they are respectively twenty one years of age each. And also that if my said wife happens again to marry all my said effects and estates are immediately to become the joint property of my aforesaid three younger sons under the guardianship of John Gribbell of the parish of Camborne in the aforesaid County, schoolmaster, and the aforesaid James Sampson and my said wife to have by them paid to her only the sum of one shilling and to be entirely excluded from that time of every other part of my effects. And also my said executrix is to pay one shilling unto my son John at the end of three months after my decease. Fourthly whereas I am bound in a bond of security with my said son John unto the Overseers of the poor of the parish of Camborne aforesaid for the maintenance of his bastard child, it is my will that if my said son John shall not in future suffer my estates and effects to be injured by means of the said bond that then he or his surviving children shall receive out of my effects at the end of six months after the decease of my said wife the like sum of ten guineas and in such manner as the like sums are to be paid to my two daughters as expressed in the first and second clause herein. Fifthly and further it is my will that the aforenamed John Gribbell and James Sampson or the survivor of them do immediately on the decease of my said wife or otherwise at her marriage take on the possession of my estates and effects left, they paying out of the same as to be paid aforesaid at her marriage or after her decease respectively and to divide the remainder jointly amongst my three younger sons aforesaid providing they shall then be each twenty one years of age. Otherwise to pay them the same respectively at that period providing my said wife shall happen to die or be married before. Sixthly the said John Gribbell and James Sampson shall be allowed all reasonable charges and expences out of my said effects. Lastly I hereby renounce all former wills by me made confirming this alone to be my last will and testament. In witness whereof I have hereunto put my hand and seal this fourth day of November in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty three. Signed sealed published and declared by the said John Rule the testator to be his last will and testament in presence of Susanah George, James Sampson, John Gribbell. John Rule"
1784 May 12: ENG CON Illogan: probate: "The will of one John Rule lately decd proved in common form before the worshipful John .... Master of Arts, Archdeacon and so forth. And administration of all and singular the goods chattels and credits of the said decd and of all things howsoever concerning the said will was granted to the executrix therein named being first sworn etc saving etc, no inventory".
Cheers
Peter
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2310
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Many thanks TRIX where did you find the deaths they look very good particularly as their last child Stephen was born in 1771 I assume you have the children's baptisms? Can you let me have the next two generations down from your Catherine 1768 please.
Have you got back on Catherine BRYANT? I have her d of Edward BRYANT and Ann MITCHEL
who m 20 Jan 1721 Gwithian ch Edward 1722 Benjamin 1726 and Catherine 1731
Haven't found Edward's birth Ann Mitchel 1700 d of Ralph MITCHEL/?
Ann 1700 Jo 1702 Mathias 1705 Tobias 1708 Paul 1710 Thomas 1713 William 1716 Ralph 1718 All Gwinear except Ralph who was St Hilary.
Stephen/Katherine Hampton could have been in Gwinear as Family Search C025711 for Gwinear has Stephen 17 Feb 1732 so there is no room for a John! Sorry I put Henry out of order in Stephen's family last time!
I think you'll find that Peter assigned the Gwinear John to Mary PERKIN but Tony (reply 15) also had John 18 Feb 1732 Camborne now this was 1732/33 (from the parish transcript OPC Camborne and is a bit out for Clarinda's husband so I think Clarinda's husband is the John 1731 brother to Ann 1732 s of John from Gwinear with the huge question of who is his dad!
So is our John1732/33 the s of Mary PERKINGS being only 19 marrying!or the son of Johnson b 1719 being 33 marrying-um I was 32 marrying for the one and only time so it is possible!
There was a John/Jane having children in Camborne1734-1748 but he is from the James 1602 line and they don't have Johnsons on that line
The OPC is indeed good and has put all the transcribed bapt on line Google OPC Camborne, he has written to me to say some one else has been enquiring after John and Catherine BRYANT and asked if I would like to contact them I suspect it's you! If so don't be surprised if he sends you our email address!
Hi again Peter yes I'll get the two wills written out and on the board as soon as I get our next foraging trip sorted still have a huge note book to sift through for my NEEDLES for it Meanwhile I'll get Eric to put the RULES on our site asp hes not around at the moment so it'll be a couple of days before its up the RULES are part of our BRAY line let me know what you think of it
Trees
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2310
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Trix Sorry our wires crossed as you see we agree on Catherine BRYANT'S parantage
The will the only mention of son John is his legacy
"First I give to my son John Rule the sum of 10 shillings ans six pence to be paid..."
Secondly I give to my eldest daughter Elizabeth Skinner...
Thirdly I give to my second daughter Rebeckah SAUNDRY...
Fourthly I give to my third daughter Mary MARTINS...
Fifthly I give to my daughterlaw Joan PASCOE...
(all had 10/6)
Lastly I give and bequeath my loving wife Jane RULE ... sole executrix she had everything else
Must get dinner will get back later
Trees
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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Dear Trees,
Here is my line from Catherine Rule - daughter of John Rule & Catherine Bryant
John RULE
chr 26 Dec 1719, Camborne, Cornwall, England or 1 Jan 1731 Gwinear or …???
Bur 2 Jul 1791, Gwinear, Cornwall, England
& Catherine BRYANT
chr 28 Feb 1731, Camborne, Cornwall, England
d. 29 Jan 1772, Gwinear, Cornwall, England
m. 8 Feb 1752, Phillack, Cornwall, England
| John RULE
| b. 1753, Gwithian, Cornwall, England
| Johnson RULE
| b. bef 29 Feb 1756, Phillack, Cornwall, England
| James RULE
| b. 1759, Gwithian, Cornwall, England
| Henry RULE
| b. 1761, Gwithian, Cornwall, England
| Catherine RULE
| b. 1764, Gwithian, Cornwall, England
| d. bef 1768, ? Not Gwithian
| Catherine RULE
| b. bef 27 Nov 1768, Gwithian, Cornwall, England
| d. abt 3 Apr 1848, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| & George BENNETTS
| b. 24 Jan 1751, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| d. 14 Feb 1832, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| m. 15 Aug 1791, Illogan Parish Church, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | Elizabeth BENNETTS
| | b. 1792, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. ? 1870, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | George BENNETT
| | b. 24 Jan 1794, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. 26 Apr 1855, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | & Mary KENDALL
| | b. 29 Sep 1797, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. 29 May 1876, Race Farm, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | m. 29 Aug 1824, Illogan Parish Church, Illogan, Cornwall
| | Catherine BENNETTS
| | b. 1796, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. 5 Dec 1880, Pool, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | & William WILLOUGHBY
| | b. 5 Sep 1790, Pool, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. 22 Jan 1880, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | m. 20 May 1817, Illogan Parish Church, Illogan, Cornwall
| | Samuel BENNETTS
| | b. bef 18 Mar 1798, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. 29 Sep 1856, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | & Mary EVA
| | b. bef 4 Jan 1807, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | d. 16 Feb 1891, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | m. 5 Mar 1829, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | Ann BENNETTS
| | b. 1800, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. Aug 1804, ?Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | Mary BENNETTS
| | b. 1801, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. Aug 1804, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | James BENNETT
| | b. 1803, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. abt May 1876, St Kew, Cornwall, England
| | & Caroline ROWE
| | b. 1812, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | d. abt Sep 1890, Cornwall, England
| | m. 4 Aug 1834, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | John BENNETTS
| | b. bef 27 Apr 1806, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. 3 May 1905, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | & Elizabeth BLEWETT
| | b. 1812, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | d. 18 Feb 1887, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | m. 12 Oct 1833, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England
| | William BENNETT
| | b. 18 May 1809, Magor Farm, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | d. abt 14 Mar 1873, Tuckingmill, Illogan, Cornwall, England
| | & Mary Ann BENNETT
| | b. 1810, Phillack Or Gwithian, Cornwall, England
| | d. Oct-Dec 1901, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | m. 9 Jul 1838, Breage, Cornwall, England
| | Mary Ann BENNETTS
| | b. 1811, Camborne, Cornwall, England
| | d. aft 1841
| Stephen RULE
| b. 1771, Gwithian, Cornwall, England
The Bennetts of Illogan & Camborne are my main interest - so lots more where they came from!!
I also had the comment from John Smith of Phillack OPC - so ditto - you will be getting my e-mail address....
Cheers,
Trix
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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Dear Trees,
Thinking of Johnson 1696-1772
You were saying that he may have been married three times - he was definitely married twice, but the third seems maybe unnecessary:
Here are Johnson children:
1st marriage abt 1718
John abt 1719=Catherine BRYANT
Elizabeth 1722=Charles SKINNER
Catherine 1725-1728
Rebecca 1727=Samuel SAUNDRY
Mary abt 1731 =Joshua MARTIN
This could all be one wife - probably a Catherine (given how often this name crops up in the following generations), might be the Catherine who died 1733 transcribed as d of Johnson (maybe it was a w?? as there seems to be only one Catherine daughter of Johnson alive at the time yet two deaths 1728 & 1733!)
2nd Marriage to Jane PASCOE, widow of Wendron 1754 who already had a daughter Joan. Yes - proven from the Phillack transcripts
The Mary Rule who died 1753, w of Johnson Rule could be the widow of Johnson senior (1662-1723). His first wife Elizabeth JAMES died 1703, and at least in the IGI submissions (surely they aren't all be wrong!) Johnson married Mary Pearce 1706. This has to be senior, poor little Johnson jnr b.1696 would have only been 10 - underage even for the 18th century!
Thank you for the Johnson will. If only our John had written one 
Overall I am much happier with a thirty something age for our John than a ninteen-ish age. I would be even happier if we could find where that IGI submission 1746 marriage John Rule supposely b. 1719 m. Anne Hocking fits. The scientist in me needs to disprove the current theory to suplant a new one..
Oh - the John 1791 & Catherine 1772 burials - I got them from the original Gwinear register - when I got to look at them on a visit to UK 20 plus years ago.
The only Edward Bryant that seems to fit the bill is Edward BRYANT
Chr: 21 Nov 1686 Camborne, Cornwall, England
Father: Robert BRYANT (Parish records)
Mother: Joan MAY (IGI submission film 451992 )
The problem - yet more names that don't seem to appear in later generations - so again I am dubious...
Cheers,
Trix 
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2310
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Hi Trix I've been writing this and stopped to read you latest wonder of wonders we agree
OK these Rules are a real head ache
I tend to favour our John=Catherine BRYANT being John 1719 for the following reasons
two other children of Johnson and Johnson himself marry in Phillack within two years of each other. Secondly we know from the will Elizabeth m Charles SKINNER (she was 30) and Rebecca m Samuel Saundry (she was 27) so John m Catherine at 33 would not be out of place
I think their mum has died and the youngsters have been “looking after him until he has found a new partner and all marry once the father has decided to marry again!
I have asked the OPC of Phillack to look for a bapt about 1729 for Mary and a possible female RULE death that could be Johnson's first wife.
Now who is the John n Gwinear F of John 1731 and Ann 1732
It is obviously he who m Clarinda ELLIS
Eric is working on our site update as I write so should be up by tomorrow By the way where are you Trix I'm guessing UK
Trees
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Trix
RootsChat Member
Posts: 104
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Dear Trees,
Happily in concord!
Where am I? Well I am one of those Aussies who wandered while young, working in UK, scratching aroubnd for ancestors, then returning to Western Australia ... so that guess was about as far out as you could be!!
Which makes it almost midnight here - so time for bed,
goodnight
& thanks again for livening up a rather grey wintery day!
Trix 
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Trees
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2310
Can't see the wood for the !!!
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Night night Trix sweet dreams
I still think the Ann Hocking could be m to Oliver's John 1718
John and Ann seem to have
Richard 1750 John 1752 Anne 1754 Susanna 1757 Elizabeth 1760 and Oliver 1762
I cant see any others to them but Tony Reply 15 says “John seems to have married Anne HOCKING on 1 Mar 1745/46 in Camborne and had numerous children right up to 1772 (the last named being yet another Johnson).” If your around Tony can you help with the children I'm missing please.
Trees
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