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Topic: Maggie MCINNES, the missing years (1860-84) (Read 1790 times)
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FishMan
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Holiday Smiles
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This post continues on from one listed on the Scotland General Board (refer http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,154894.msg746209.html#msg746209).
I have since found two reliable sources; the birth certificate of Maggie's second daughter, my grandmother and the passenger list for the ship on which she emigrated to Australia - both of which list her birthplace as Morvern, Argyll, Scotland.
As she does not appear in the BMD records of ScotlandsPeople and hasn't yet been found in the 1861 or 1871 census (I'm assuming the Maggie MCINNES at the Crinan Inn in 1881 to be her) I hope someone can shed some light as to the Presbyterian parishes in Morvern and possible church records of her birth and parents?
Thanks,
FishMan
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FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)
LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9061
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Hello Fishman
Nice to have you back with Maggie McInnes. Hope the house move went well. A couple of weeks ago when we had replies going back and forth on this one, I did find this 1861 census entry, which with what you have now said, has become more relevant. The only problem was I coulnd't link it to anything (yet!) on SP. From this entry, if we have the right family, you would expect father Donald to have died anywhere between 1856-61:
MORV LOCHALINE 34 MARGARET MACINNES F HEAD W 36 WASHING-WOMAN ENGLAND
MORV LOCHALINE 34 MARGARET MACINNES F DAUR U 7 SCHOLAR MORVERN
MORV LOCHALINE 34 JOANN MACINNES F DAUR U 4 MORVERN
Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ked1/61ftwillcen1.html
From this entry, if we have the right one, might explain why we can't find a death entry for Maggie's mother, if she returned to England. It would also go some way to explaining why your Maggie ended up in England in the first place.
Another important point, the issue of Maggie's age. The Maggie in this census shows birth year of c.1854 which may explain why all of us have not have able to find any record of her 1855-61........
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4577
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Fishman
Thanks for the update - it's starting to get interesting now!
The Census family Monica found do look good - and perhaps it's a calculated risk in soon getting the birth of Joanne, which should be on SP, to give a mother's maiden name, and a father's name and occupation. That can then be used to check deaths of Margaret Snr, marriages, and English Census perhaps for Margaret's family. Having the mother Margaret being from England - that still fits, doesn't it - as your information says "her family was from Inverness" , which doesn't necessarily mean she herself was born there......
Perhaps to find sister Joanne in the 1871, 1881 Census?
Meantime, this looks like an interesting source:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcinnes/messages/88.html
regarding a present day Donald McInnes, describing himself as "Scottish Commissioner, Clan MacInnes Society" and who has an interest in particular, in Morvern McINNES. Hopefully email still valid for him.
Cheers
AMBLY
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9061
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Fishman and Ambly
I'm quietly EXCITED here guys! I'm on the trail of the Margaret McInnes showing on the 1861 census index in Morvern. There are no birth entries at all on SP for a J* McInnes in Morvern and boy have I looked. There should be given her birth is post 1855 and there is but not under McInnes...under mother's surname of GROVES! Margaret Groves' husband was DONALD MCINNES, he died in 1855 in Morvern...so he wasn't the father of Joann (illegitimate), although on the 1861 Census Joann is going by the name of McInnes.
There is a marriage entry on IGI:
DONALD MCINNES Marriages: Spouse: MARGARET GROVES
Marriage: 19 OCT 1848 Salen By Tobermory, Argyll, Scotland
Given it's an 1855 cert., it lists his children, the first of which shows on IGI:
MARY ANN MCINNIS Birth: DEC 1848 Morven, Argyll, Scotland
Parents: Father: DONALD MCINNIS Mother:MARGARET GROVE
Mary Ann shows as deceased on Donald's death cert. There is also a Janet age 4 (born c.1851) but no sign of her in 1861 but she does show up later.....
Finally, a last child, NO NAME age 2, which by all accounts should be Maggie to fit the entry in the 1861 census.
I have found Donald and Margaret in the 1851 census, Margaret shows a birth place of Lancashire.
I have found a Joan McInnes age 14 in the 1871 census working as a servant in a household in Argyll with birth place of Morvern.
I have found Margaret McInnes and daughter Margaret age 18 living in Anderston, Glasgow in 1871.
I have found Margaret Groves McInnes's death cert in Tradeston, Glasgow in 1872..........death reported by her daughter Janet McInnes.
IT'S GOT TO BE MAGGIE AND FAMILY!!! Absolutely nothing else fits if it's not (and I'll throw my laptop in the bin!).
If you PM me with emails, happy to send you images and see what you make of it.
Regards.
Monica
From the Morvern Census Index, this looks like Donald with mother and aunt in 1841:
MORV KNOCK 11 DONALD MACINNIS M 30 AG.LAB. Y
MORV KNOCK 11 JANET MACINNIS F 60 Y
MORV KNOCK 11 PEGGY MACKENZIE F 65 Y
Donald's parents were Donald MacInnis and Janet MacKenzie. Some siblings showing on IGI:
1. HUGH MACINNIS Birth: 23 NOV 1815 Morven, Argyll, Scotland
2. NEIL MACINNIS Birth: 27 JUN 1813 Morven, Argyll, Scotland
3. JOHN MACINNIS Birth: 17 SEP 1809 Morven, Argyll, Scotland
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4577
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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WOW  Monica Sherlock!!
One wee word (Morvern) and it's off like a rocket!!!! It's looking good, I'd say.
My curiosity:
What were Margaret Snr's parents names on her death cert ? Wondering if there was any mention of the surname HASTINGS as that was the supposed surname of Maggie's mother as stated on Maggie's death cert in Australia. It would be nice to fit that in some where! Wondering if she may have been in England in the 1841 Census. Is her age consistent in the records you have - ie: born circa 1826?
What was Donald's occupation, don't know why - just really curious!
Cheers
AMBLY
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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A few things.
There is a second entry (presumably banns in two parishes) in the IGI for the marriage of Donald and Margaret:
Donald MACINNIS (sic) m Margaret GROVE (sic) 18 Oct 1848 Morven Argyll
Janet's birth is in the IGI:
Janet MACINNIS (sic) b 15 Mar 1851 Morven Argyll, parents Donald MACINNIS (sic) and Margaret GROVE (sic)
Joann's birth is in the IGI as:
Jo_ann HAGARTY b 9 Dec 1856 Morven Argyll, parents Thomas HAGARTY and Margret (sic) GROVE
Given the birthplace of Lancashire for Margaret MCINNES/MACINNIS/MCINNIS nee GROVE(S) there is a possibility in the IGI:
Margaret GROVES bap 8 Jan 1826, Cathedral Manchester Lancashire, parents John GROVES and Elizabeth.
Of course no luck with the marriage of a John GROVES to a HASTINGS ...
Some concerns.
Margaret's age. Did she really lower it by some 6 years? Was her husband, Theodor KRUSE, a younger man?
The name Hastings. One wonders where that name came from on the death certificate (and is this the only place it occurs?) as a middle name, and as the surname of her reported mother.
1881 census. Where is Margaret in the 1881 census? If she is the one in the Crinan Inn, why would she have lowered her age to 20 at that stage?
And, as AMBLY asked, what are the parents' names on the death certificate of Margaret MCINNES/MCINNIS/MACINNIS nee GROVE(S)?
JAP
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FishMan
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Holiday Smiles
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This is just a personal observation - I can't help but wonder how Maggie came to have such a senior role in the household of Jacob & Ursula BRIGHT. It is apparent that she could only have worked for them for a short period in the early 1880's, and unless her birthdate is wildly inaccurate she was only in her early twenties. It also seems strange that letters which can only be described as "work instructions" from Ursula BRIGHT were addressed "My dearest Maggie" but perhaps that was polite convention at the time.
Another possibility given the proximity of the Bright's home "Hurst Lea" at Alderley Edge to Manchester is some relationship between the families, either directly or through other household staff.
FishMan
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FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)
LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9061
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I've sent a PM to FishMan with certs. Just picking up here on a number of the questions by Ambly and JAP:
1. Donald MCINNIS/MCINNES looks to have been born and raised in Morvern. Therefore, the second banns in Salen by Tobermory would indicate that Margaret Groves was living herself there at the time of the marriage.
2. In respect of Donald's birth year, he shows as age 47 in the 1851 census, and age 50 at his death in 1855 so c.1803-5. An Alexander McKinzie, a relative on his mother's side (?) reported his death. His occupation in the various certs: crofter and agricultural labourer and shepherd in Margaret Groves' death cert.
3. Margaret's birth year is fairly consistent in all certs., born c.1824/5. No inconsistencies there. Her parents, from her death cert. were William GROVE and Mary Ann (the name of her first born daughter) and...BLANK for maiden name (blast!). From the 1851 census, as stated, her birth county is Lancashire. There is a place name given there but could not make out at this stage what it is.
It's a pity Margaret's mother's surname does not show, I would expect that to be the link to HASTINGS but at this stage have not yet found reference to that surname. Similarly, on the Inverness-shire connections, I suppose the reference to that could apply to either of her parents' families coming from there, but no proof at this stage.
I've only just checked - there is a Margaret GROVES living in Morvern in 1841! Showing as born outside county, from the Morvern Census Index:
MORV KNOCK 23 ALEX MACGILLIVRAY M 55 ARMY-PENSIONER Y
MORV KNOCK 23 MARY MACGILLIVRAY F 50 N
MORV KNOCK 23 MARGARET GROVES F 15 SERV.FEMALE N
Knock is also Donald McInnes's birth place. She is the only GROVES showing in Morvern.
4. Now on to Maggie:
- We have a reference to her on her father's death cert in 1855, as his third child, no name, aged 2.
- We have her I believe in the 1861 census index with mother and half sister Joann, she shows as age 7.
- There is a Margaret and daughter showing in Tradeston Glasgow City with the right ages, mother shows as widow. The only fly...they show as born Glasgow.....but I have seen this before so I'll take a 50:50 on that one. No other entries that I've seen seem to fit. Joann sister was living in as a servant age 14 in Argyll. I haven't searched for Janet but I would guess she was probably also in Glasgow given she reported her mother's death the following year.
- My guess at this staqe is that following her mother's death in 1872, Margaret may have followed the work and ended up in England. Finding her in the 1881 census either in Scotland or England would obviously be good.
- I think her age lost 6 years from the ship's manifest listing onwards. Why this was I don't know but not uncommon and certainly something I have seen happen. As you said JAP, maybe husband was slightly younger than her or she just chose to do so, who knows to be honest. I am certainly confident (as much as one can be) from what I have seen on SP that she wasn't born post 1855.
- Maggie being slightly older also fits better in respect her position in the BRIGHT household. She would have been c. 27 in the early 1880s rather than a young 20 year old in 1881. I don't necessarily think the Maggie at Crinnan Inn is the right one.
5. One way forward is obviously to find info in England relating to Margaret GROVES's family and the issue of the HASTINGS name. I did think that if maybe this name was important, maybe Joann or Janet may have also used it as a middle name if they went on to marry and have children of their own.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4577
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi All
I wonder if Maggie's age was adjusted from the point of her emigration, because she was aiming to fit a criteria for Assissted Immigration?
I know there were rules, some which governed how much one might have to pay, and that the rules changed frequently - I suppose to regulate the flow of Applicants. This site in interesting, though it is referring to a period a good decade earlier than Maggie's departure to Australia.
http://www.theshipslist.com/Forms/assisted1869.html
As to Ursula Bright addressing "Work Instructions" to "Dearest Maggie"......Well this is just a theory....Fishman, how can I explain the imgery in my head  but Ursula was a leader in the Women's liberation movement etc....ahead of her time no doubt in many ways; have you seen those period dramas on tele of the English Aristocracy, as they are moving out of the late 1800's to 1900's where they speak in such affected terms, women who were breaking out of the mould and finding their voice became sort of "hyped" in their manner of speech and everything was exaggerated, even the most mundane things.
"My daRRling" and "my dearest" and "Our Dear Nursie", Darling Nanny", "Oh Dearest Cook, what ever would we do without you" - such intimate words but really, not meaning the intimacy they convey.
Cheers
AMBLY
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9061
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I have found an interesting entry on IGI English 1881 Census. I have just realised, from search results by JAP, that MAC & MC INNIS & INNES are not linked as you would expect on IGI search results.
I've tried the different variants and found an entry I hadn't seen before where I wonder if the Margery may have been mis-trascribed. I don't know if one of you has access to the actual image on Ancestry for example and could check whether it might be in fact Maggie:
Margery MACINNES - 1881 British Census / Derby
Serv Gender: Female Birth: <1859> Glencoe, Scotland
I know it says Glencoe but at one stage we had Oban, and Glencoe is close to Morvern. The birth year, well what can I say! The reason I found this entry interesting is because of the household members (JP and MP for South Derbyshire etc) and also its proximity to Alderley Edge.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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The IGI is sometimes quite strange in what it does, and what it does not, combine in both surnames and forenames! In general the combinations are very helpful indeed - but one does need to be wary. (I have a one-name study of the very rare Scots name LOCHTIE/LOCHTY from Fife - the LDS doesn't, and won't, combine those two spelling variants!)
Margery is interesting especially given the parliamentary connexion ... But the age is still a worry vis-a-vis Margaret b ca 1854!
There is the birth of a Marjory MCINNES in 1859 in Lismore, parents John MCINNES and Mary MCCOLL.
Monica, as you say, all the places (Glencoe, Oban, the Morvern area, Tobermory and as is the island of Lismore) are in the same general area of Argyll - especially by boat.
FishMan, you haven't yet answered the question re the age of Theodor KRUSE (if you know it)?
AMBLY, I like the idea of the age criterion for migration - but can't find anything from a quick look on the Internet (to follow your line of thought, one can just imagine the bolshie Ursula telling her dearest Maggie not to hesitate to dissemble re her age - whether it be vis-a-vis her prospective husband's age or vis-a-vis possibly discrimatory migration age provisions. Though I have in my database several single women who came as assisted immigrants in their late twenties ...)
Unfortunately I don't have access to the census images nor to the 1881 UK (including Scotland) census CDs ...
JAP
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FishMan
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Holiday Smiles
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JAP,
Theodor Georg KRUSE was born 2nd November 1856 in Nyboder, Copenhagen, Denmark. His Danish father Johan Lauritz KRUSE (a ropemaker) and Swedish mother Anna Britta HOLMSTED had three older sons (Lauritz Gottfred KRUSE, August Ferdinand KRUSE & Cornelius Christian KRUSE) and a daughter (Anna Laurine Charlotte KRUSE).
Interestingly Theodor & Maggie had a strong sense of family, naming their children;
- Britha Laurina Maggie KRUSE (after Swedish grandmother, Danish aunt and mother)
- Donald Theodor KRUSE (after Scottish grandfather and father)
- Anna Kristina KRUSE (after Swedish grandmother / Danish aunt and ?)
- Theodore George KRUSE (after father (although Anglicized) and ?)
- Alexander Godfrey KRUSE (after Scottish grandfather and ?)
Perhaps another daughter would have resulted in a reference to her mother, but the sons names would certainly support the fact that Donald Alexander MCINNES was indeed Maggie's father.
FishMan
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FISHER (Cheshire, Lancashire, Essex, Australia)
BURNS (Lancashire)
SYMES & SCOTT (Devon, Lancashire)
MCCALLUM (Midlothian, Malta, Kent & Dublin)
GARDINER (Midlothian, Ireland, Malta)
KRUSE (Denmark, Australia)
MCINNES (Argyll, Cheshire, London, Australia)
MCINTOSH (Avoch, Nairn, Australia)
COULL (Banffshire)
LEWIS (Herefordshire, Australia)
COLES (Oxfordshire, Australia)
STUFFINS (Huntingdonshire, Cambridgeshire)
JASPER & JUKES (Worcestershire)
NAPIER (Ireland, Australia)
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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Hi FishMan,
Well, I guess the jury's still out!
It would have been more convincing had Theodor been a much younger chap - born ca 1858/9 or even later 
The trouble with the surname MCINNES (however spelled) and the forenames Donald and Alexander, is that they were very common indeed!
And, of course, were Theodor and Maggie following Scottish naming patterns (I don't have a clue about Danish or Swedish naming patterns) one might have expected - had Maggie been the daughter of William GROVE and Mary Ann - the first daughter to be called Mary Ann and the second son to be called William ...
Perhaps the next step is to make sure that there's no other trace of a Margaret MCINNES (however spelled) b ca 1854 in Morvern (or close by) still in Scotland (or elsewhere in the UK) after the 1871 census ...
Sorry to be difficult 
Cheers,
JAP
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