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Topic: BROWNs of OCHILTREE: Definite Family Connections-2 Brothers Marry 2 Sisters. (Read 1350 times)
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Jeanette H
RootsChat Member
Posts: 138
One-Half of Dancing-Duo Waltzing Through 'TARDIS'.
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Hello To All RootsChat Members,
I have two 'BROWN' Families, one is directly linked to us.
However the similarities between the two families, has me believing that they are related, still yet to make the connection, maybe someone in cyberspace may also have a link, or perhaps may be able to assist.
[b]The similarities as I see it are as follows:
* In the childrens names - Robert / Margaret /
James & Mary.
* With the maiden name of 'CAMPBELL'.
* Occupations as Hook Makers.
* Birthplaces in Wigtownshire / Ochiltree.
[1st Family]
James BROWN & Margaret (nee CAMPBELL)
(Issue - births)
Robert Campbell (1826) / William (1828) /
Catherine (1831) / James Campbell (1833) /
David (1835) / Margaret (1837) /
Marianne(Mary Ann) (1839) / Janet Hannah (1843) /
2nd Family - ages as of 1851 Census]
Andrew BROWN (41yrs) & Catherine (nee CAMPBELL) (41yrs)
(Issue)
Robert (15yrs) / Mary (13yrs) / James (10yrs) /
Andrew (8yrs) / Alexander (5yrs) / Margaret (2yrs) /
Margaret CAMPBELL (Mother-In-Law) (78yrs)
In 1837 - James BROWN (Snr) was listed as a 'Shearing Hook Manufacturer' (in the Ochiltree Ayrshire Directory- 1837, by Pigot and Co.
1841 - James BROWN & family were residing in Main Street Ochiltree.
1851 - Both Families were residing in Main Street, Ochiltree, Ayrshire.
1851 Census - James BROWN (Snr), was listed as being born in Stranraer, Wigtownshire. His occupation was as a Blacksmith (Master Employing 6 Men).
1851 - Andrew BROWN (Snr), was listed as being born in Leswalt, Wigtownshire. His occupation was as a Hook Maker. While his wife Catherine was listed as being born at Portpatrick, Wigtownshire.
1851 - (Listed on the Dalrymple Census) The [4] Sons of James BROWN (William, Robert, James & David), and a future Son-In-Law (James REID), also followed in the same Occupation.
1861 - James & Margaret BROWN (Snr), appeared on the Kirkmichael Census, at Cassillis Mill. James (57yrs), birthplace Stranraer, Wigtownshire. Margaret (55yrs) birthplace Portpatrick, Wigtownshire. This time James's Occupation was listed as a Hook or Scythe Manufacturer - employing 3 men.
1871 - as yet, have not seen this census.
1881 - James (Snr) (75yrs) is still residing at Cassillis Mill, from Stranraer, occupation as an edge tool maker.
Still looking for the Birth / Death / Marriage Certificates, for James & Margaret BROWN (nee CAMPBELL). This is our
direct family connection.
Through family documentation I somehow get the feeling that James and Margaret BROWN (nee CAMPBELL) or their Parents, Grandparents, etc. perhaps originally came from Ayrshire, prior to their Wigtownshire connections. This we still have to prove.
Other Surnames that we know of that are linked to this family are:
BAIRD, REID, HUTCHISON, GUTHRIE, WYL(L)IE, BURNS (BURNESS).
Would love to hear from anyone who feels they may have a connection, or perhaps may be able to assist in some way.
Jeanette H.
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« Last Edit: Saturday 05 August 06 04:29 UTC (UK) by Jeanette H »
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One-Half Of 'Dancing-Duo' Waltzing Through Time & Space.
Researching To Find Lots Of Things Not To Do.
Research Names & Areas:
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Ayrshire, Scotland: BROWN / BAIRD / BURNS(BURNESS) / HUTCHISON / COWAN / REID / WYL(L)IE
Roxburghshire, Scotland: TURNBULL / VEITCH / ELLIOT / MURRAY
Aberdeenshire, Scotland: WATT / MITCHELL
England: TOPPING / MEDLEY
Ireland: MORROW
Australia: BROWN / BAIRD / TURNBULL / WATT / TOPPING / MORROW / MEDLEY / TACKI
Germany: ECKHARDT / HUBNER / TACKI
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Billie Mendav
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 28
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just want to make the comment that there were an AWFUL lot of Campbells in Ayr. I wonder if this web site might help you.
http://fp.ayrshireroots.plus.com/Genealogy/Surnames/Campbell/C
It lists a lot of Campbell marriages for those dates. Hope it's still there.
Keep in touch,
Billie
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Jeanette H
RootsChat Member
Posts: 138
One-Half of Dancing-Duo Waltzing Through 'TARDIS'.
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Hello Billie,
I tried to access the URL (in relation to Ayrshireroots), however I could not get access by clicking on it.
So I typed in http://fp.ayrshireroots.plus.com/Genealogy/database/htm
I then was able to enter the site, then I scrolled down to near the end of the page, where it said 'SURNAME DATABASE' (Now Requires Free Registration).
Is this Database where we will find the Campbell marriages?
I have been to this site in the past, but as time passes you find so many different sites, you Bookmark them, then after a while you tend to forget about them, that is if you do not use them regularly.
I sent you a Personal Message (PM), in answer to your earlier question on the other topic page. Hope you received it, let me know if you do not.
Thanking You,
Jeanette H.
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Logged
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One-Half Of 'Dancing-Duo' Waltzing Through Time & Space.
Researching To Find Lots Of Things Not To Do.
Research Names & Areas:
********************
Ayrshire, Scotland: BROWN / BAIRD / BURNS(BURNESS) / HUTCHISON / COWAN / REID / WYL(L)IE
Roxburghshire, Scotland: TURNBULL / VEITCH / ELLIOT / MURRAY
Aberdeenshire, Scotland: WATT / MITCHELL
England: TOPPING / MEDLEY
Ireland: MORROW
Australia: BROWN / BAIRD / TURNBULL / WATT / TOPPING / MORROW / MEDLEY / TACKI
Germany: ECKHARDT / HUBNER / TACKI
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Jeanette H
RootsChat Member
Posts: 138
One-Half of Dancing-Duo Waltzing Through 'TARDIS'.
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Hello Rusell,
Thank you for your reply and input, I do appreciate it.
I was aware that these occupations are all inter-related.
I was outlining how one person's occupation, was given different titles, over the course of his life.
Then comparing James BROWN (Snr) & Andrew BROWN (Snr), and their occupations, with the definite possibility that they were carrying it on down through the family.
It may also be very relevant to tracking down their parentage, as this same occupation may well have been their fathers.
* PLEASE NOTE:
A slight modification has recently been included in the ORIGINAL TOPIC.
Thanking You,
Jeanette H.
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Logged
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One-Half Of 'Dancing-Duo' Waltzing Through Time & Space.
Researching To Find Lots Of Things Not To Do.
Research Names & Areas:
********************
Ayrshire, Scotland: BROWN / BAIRD / BURNS(BURNESS) / HUTCHISON / COWAN / REID / WYL(L)IE
Roxburghshire, Scotland: TURNBULL / VEITCH / ELLIOT / MURRAY
Aberdeenshire, Scotland: WATT / MITCHELL
England: TOPPING / MEDLEY
Ireland: MORROW
Australia: BROWN / BAIRD / TURNBULL / WATT / TOPPING / MORROW / MEDLEY / TACKI
Germany: ECKHARDT / HUBNER / TACKI
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Hi Jeanette
In case you don't have this, this is Andrew Brown and family in 1841:
BROWN Andrew M 30 Blacksmith Outside Census County (1841)
BROWN Kathrine F 30 Outside Census County (1841)
BROWN Robert M 5 Ayrshire
BROWN Mary F 3 Ayrshire
BROWN James M 1 Ayrshire
Address:Ochiltree Village, Ochiltree-Ayrshire
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Jeanette
Two brothers married two sisters!
I'll do this in two different posts to try to keep it simple! The records for these families are on IGI, luckily they are actual extracts from the OPRs rather than submitted entries.
Brown Family:
I know James stated in Censuses that he was born in Stranraer but he would appear to have been born in Leswalt like his brother Andrew.
From IGI, using the batch code for Leswalt, these are the births I can find for parents Robert BROWN and Mary MACKIE:
JAMES BROUN Christening: 11 SEP 1798 Leswalt, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ROBERT BROUN Mother: MARY KIE
ROBERT BROUN Christening: 06 JUN 1801 Leswalt, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ROBERT BROUN Mother: MARY KIE
WILLIAM BROWN Christening: 27 MAR 1805 Leswalt, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ROBERT BROWN Mother: MARY MACKIE
JOHN BROWN Christening: 27 MAR 1805 Leswalt, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ROBERT BROWN Mother: MARY MACKIE
ANDREW BROWN Christening: 25 DEC 1809 Leswalt, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ROBERT BROWN Mother: MACKIE
Batch Number: c118912
Their parents' marriage also shows on IGI, along with Andrew's marriage to Catherine Campbell (unfortunately James's doesn't as far as I can see). It would appear that at some point following the births of their children, Robert and Mary moved to Ochiltree, Ayr. Andrew's marriage shows there:
ROBERT BROUN Marriages: Spouse: MARY MCKIE
Marriage: 26 NOV 1795 Leswalt, Wigtown, Scotland
ANDREW BROWN Marriages: Spouse: CATHARINE CAMPBELL
Marriage: 29 DEC 1833 Ochiltree, Ayr, Scotland
I've viewed James Brown's (and Andrew's) death cert. and it confirms these parents.
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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....now for the Campbells!
Similar story perhaps?
Again from IGI, all actual extracts from OPRs:
Parents: Father: ROBERT CAMPBELL Mother: MARGARET KENNEDY
Batch number: C118962
Children are showing as all born in Portpatrick, Wigtown:
1. ALEXANDER CAMPBELL Christening: 09 FEB 1806 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
2. JAMES CAMPBELL Christening: 12 FEB 1798 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
3. SARAH CAMPBELL Christening: 30 MAR 1794 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
4. QUINTEN CAMPBELL Christening: 09 OCT 1814 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
5. ROBERT CAMPBELL Christening: 16 NOV 1795 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
6. JOHN CAMPBELL Christening: 21 MAR 1812 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
7. ANN CAMPBELL Christening: 23 JAN 1792 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
8. CATHERINE CAMPBELL Christening: 01 FEB 1809 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
9. JANET CAMPBELL Christening: 01 MAR 1803 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
10. MARGARET CAMPBELL Christening: 12 AUG 1800 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
11. MARY CAMPBELL Christening: 25 MAY 1818 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
Now, your Margaret (No.10), shows with a mother Ann Kennedy on the OPRs extract. This is either an error at the point of extraction of the record from the OPR or it was entered incorrectly into the OPR.
This is the parents' marriage on IGI:
ROBERT CAMPBELL Marriages: Spouse: MARGARET KENNADY
Marriage: 25 MAR 1791 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
I have viewed Margaret's death cert and it confirms these parents.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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....and on to the Kennedys!
I think this may be Margaret Campbell nee Kennedy in the 1841 Census:
LEACH Jane F 55 Husband Absent Wigtownshire
LEACH Alexander M 13 Son Wigtownshire
LEACH Margaret F 11 Daughter Wigtownshire
LEACH Robert M 9 Son Wigtownshire
LEACH Andrew M 3 Son Wigtownshire
WALLACE Margaret F 55 Sewer Wigtownshire
CAMPBELL Margaret F 66 Lone Woman Wigtownshire
Address: Barracks Street, Portpatrick-Wigtownshire.
I believe Margaret Kennedy died back in Portpatrick in 1857. From the details relating to her parents, I think you may have your link to Ayrshire on at least one of the lines. Her parents' marriage I think on IGI:
ALEXANDER KENNEDY Marriages: Spouse: ANN GILESPY
Marriage: 20 NOV 1761 Barr By Girvan, Ayr, Scotland
And again on IGI (I couldn't find any births in Barr):
1. JANET KENNEDY Christening: 27 JAN 1776 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
2. JANNET KENNEDY Christening: 03 AUG 1782 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
And using the batch code for Portpatrick C118962
3. AGNESS KENEDY Christening: 28 JUN 1762 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ALEXANDER KENEDY Mother: ANNAS GILESPY
4. JOHN KENNEDY Christening: DEC 1763 Portpatrick, Wigtown, Scotland
Parents: Father: ALEXANDER KENNEDY Mother: ANN
Must go to bed now!
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Jeanette H
RootsChat Member
Posts: 138
One-Half of Dancing-Duo Waltzing Through 'TARDIS'.
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Hello Monica,
Thank you so very much for all the information you have provided, it is much appreciated. Here, where we live in Victoria, Australia, we do not have immediate access to these particular records.
No, I did not have the 1841 Census details for Andrew BROWN and family.
Are you actually connected to these families in some way?
So do you definitely feel that these two BROWN families are connected, and that I have been on the right path?
I am still trying to get my thoughts around all this information, although I have come across some of these names over the past few years, but connecting the names has been the problem. Also in not being able to find the Birth, Death & Marriage dates of James BROWN & his wife Margaret CAMPBELL, has not helped at all.
You mentioned that you had viewed the Death Certificates for James BROWN, Andrew BROWN & Margaret CAMPBELL.
Is it possible for you to pass on to me the dates and certificate numbers, as I would be very interested in obtaining the various Certificates.
Hope you had a well deserved rest, as researching can be very 'Mind-Boggling'.
Thanking You,
Jeanette H.
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Logged
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One-Half Of 'Dancing-Duo' Waltzing Through Time & Space.
Researching To Find Lots Of Things Not To Do.
Research Names & Areas:
********************
Ayrshire, Scotland: BROWN / BAIRD / BURNS(BURNESS) / HUTCHISON / COWAN / REID / WYL(L)IE
Roxburghshire, Scotland: TURNBULL / VEITCH / ELLIOT / MURRAY
Aberdeenshire, Scotland: WATT / MITCHELL
England: TOPPING / MEDLEY
Ireland: MORROW
Australia: BROWN / BAIRD / TURNBULL / WATT / TOPPING / MORROW / MEDLEY / TACKI
Germany: ECKHARDT / HUBNER / TACKI
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Hi Jeanette
I will PM you with further details on the death certs. for James, Andrew and Margaret. I am not connected to these lines, just did the searches. Quite a puzzle linking the two families together, but having viewed the death certs. for all three, I am fairly confidents that the relationships were brothers/sisters. I haven't searched for Catherine Campbell's death cert. but given that she had her mother living with her and Andrew in the 1851 Census and the relationship is clearly indicated, I haven't double checked that (you may wish to do that on SP for final verification).
It is fortunate that the families are fairly well documented on IGI, and the ages on the censuses match the birth entries to be found there.
I haven't been able to find any further info on the Brown line (I've noted your interest re Robbie Burns on another post). I haven't searched the 1841 Census for Robert Snr and Mary MacKie to see if they were still living at this stage. Unfortunately, FreeCen seems to grind to a halt when searching Browns, even with the additional fields of Ochiltree/Ayrshire! I don't have access to the new 1841 Census index from Ancestry which is much more flexible on the searches. If you don't, it may be worthwhile putting up another post for this info. Have a look at the death certs for James/Andrew first for Robert Snr occupation ect., which may help on the searches for 1841.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Jeanette
You probably have this site already re Robert Burn's lineage. If not, it's one of the best that I have seen:
www.burness.ca/burns.html
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Jeanette H
RootsChat Member
Posts: 138
One-Half of Dancing-Duo Waltzing Through 'TARDIS'.
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Hello Monica,
Yes I have seen this site on the BURNs Family, created by John Burness. A few years ago he did have the Maternal [BROWN] side listed, however I do not know why it no-longer is on the site.
I have sent you a PM.
With the details you sent in earlier Posts, of names etc. I visited the Wigtownshire Pages, and came across some 'Wills' and 'Death' entries for the Surnames, may not be relevant, but who knows.
I am still sifting through the information, I will be in touch.
Thanking you, you are so very helpful, I hope I can assist you in some way.
Jeanette H.
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Logged
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One-Half Of 'Dancing-Duo' Waltzing Through Time & Space.
Researching To Find Lots Of Things Not To Do.
Research Names & Areas:
********************
Ayrshire, Scotland: BROWN / BAIRD / BURNS(BURNESS) / HUTCHISON / COWAN / REID / WYL(L)IE
Roxburghshire, Scotland: TURNBULL / VEITCH / ELLIOT / MURRAY
Aberdeenshire, Scotland: WATT / MITCHELL
England: TOPPING / MEDLEY
Ireland: MORROW
Australia: BROWN / BAIRD / TURNBULL / WATT / TOPPING / MORROW / MEDLEY / TACKI
Germany: ECKHARDT / HUBNER / TACKI
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Jeanette H
RootsChat Member
Posts: 138
One-Half of Dancing-Duo Waltzing Through 'TARDIS'.
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Hello to All RootsChat Members,
I wish to acknowledge a very helpful member.
If nominations for awards were to be given for assisting others in their research, then I nominate a most worthy recipient:
Thank you so very much, I really do appreciate all the time and effort you have put in, in researching.
Monica has been so very helpful in assisting to sort out my 'BROWN' / 'CAMPBELL' Family connections, and in proving that my assumptions were correct. Also, in supplying information which proves that 2 Brothers married 2 sisters.
This really has opened up other areas for me to continue researching.
There is still much more to this family, a never ending story.
Jeanette H.
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Logged
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One-Half Of 'Dancing-Duo' Waltzing Through Time & Space.
Researching To Find Lots Of Things Not To Do.
Research Names & Areas:
********************
Ayrshire, Scotland: BROWN / BAIRD / BURNS(BURNESS) / HUTCHISON / COWAN / REID / WYL(L)IE
Roxburghshire, Scotland: TURNBULL / VEITCH / ELLIOT / MURRAY
Aberdeenshire, Scotland: WATT / MITCHELL
England: TOPPING / MEDLEY
Ireland: MORROW
Australia: BROWN / BAIRD / TURNBULL / WATT / TOPPING / MORROW / MEDLEY / TACKI
Germany: ECKHARDT / HUBNER / TACKI
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