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Topic: Mary Laidler - Missing Years (Read 481 times)
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Valda
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As well as the actual address did you search the area around the address in 1851? What was the 'piece number' (HO107 ........) for the 1851 census because a search could be done in the index of that piece number and adjoining piece numbers for likely candidates.
What evidence do you have that proves Eleanor the sister of John Laidler was the Eleanor Laidler who had an illegitimate child called Mary in 1824? Did the family live in the vicinity of Talk Tarn?
Was Eleanor the sister of John Laidler the Eleanor born Ovingham Northumberland who was in Gateshead on the 1851 census, aged 42, and therefore circa 15 in 1824?
If Mary was the daughter of Eleanor then John would be her uncle not her cousin. If Mary was the illegitimate daughter of John and Eleanor's mother Jane nee Brewis then she would be John and Eleanor's half sister, but I would have thought older than John and Eleanor since she would need to have been born before Jane's marriage to Mr Laidler?
Regards
Valda
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alisporter
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The piece number is HO107 2406.
The only evidence for Eleanor Laidler being Mary's mother is that she was registered at Hayton By Brampton. These Laidlers were from Northumberland although they lived in Cumberland close to Talkin Tarn. All the family stayed in cumberland except John and Eleanor.
Eleanor had married Septimus Forster by 1851 and was a widow living with her brother Henry Laidler at Waterhead.
Mary is older than John (census shows 1824 and 1829). Jane married John Laidler 30/03/1820, Henry was born around 1817).
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Scotland; Porter, Legerwood
Northumberland; Porter, Ogle, Legerwood, Dixon, Kennedy, Iveson
Cumberland; Laidler
Wales; Evans, Walters, Morgan, Thomas
Somerset; Leigh, Cook
Oxfordshire; Denman
Middx; Chelsea; Benson; Finsbury; Macklin
Nottinghamshire; Perry
Cambridgeshire; Cropley
Berkshire; White
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Valda
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Using the IGI and the Waterhead censuses 1841-1881 this is the information that I have pieced together on the family – does it all connect with them? (There were other Laidlers present in Waterhead on the censuses)
John Laidler married Eleanor Atkinson 1791 Haltwhistle Northumberland
John Laidler baptism 1791 Allendale Northumberland parents John & Eleanor
Jane Laidler baptism 1793 Allendale Northumberland parents John & Eleanor
Joseph Laidler baptism 1796 Lambley Northumberland parents John & Eleanor
Mary Laidler baptism 1797 Lambley Northumberland parents John & Eleanor
William Laidler baptism 1799 Lambley Northumberland parents John & Eleanor
Eleanor Forster nee Laidler (present Waterhead 1851-1871/Gateshead Durham 1841 with husband and John Forster born circa 1837 not Durham) Eleanor born circa 1802-1805 ‘Whitwham’ Northumberland, Haltwhistle Northumberland or ‘Lawley’ Northumberland, baptism 1802 Lambley Northumberland parents John & Eleanor . Married Hexham Northumberland 1834.
Henry Laidler (present Waterhead 1851-1881 farmer) born circa 1803-1807 Lanercost Cumberland x2 Haltwhistle Northumberland x 1 and’ Whitwham’ Northumberland x1 baptism 1805 Lambley Northumberland parents John & Eleanor
Dorothy Laidler baptism Lanercost Cumberland 1808 parents John & Eleanor
Thomas Laidler (present Waterhead 1851-1881 farmer) born circa 1802-1812 Lanercost Cumberland – baptism 1810 Lanercost Cumberland parents John & Eleanor
Elizabeth Laidler (present Waterhead 1851) born circa 1814 baptism Lanercost Cumberland 1813 parents John & Eleanor
Eleanor Laidler (present 1851 relationship unspecified) born circa 1821 Castle Carrock Cumberland
John (present 1851-1861 servant and farm labourer) born circa 1824-1829 Castle Carrock nephew to Henry
1841 census The Hill Waterhead Abbey Lanercost Cumberland
William Laidler 30 Farmer not born Cumberland
Henry Laidler 25 not born Cumberland
Elizabeth Laidler 20 born Cumberland
Thomas Laidler 20 born Cumberland
John Laidler 15 born Cumberland
Eleanor Laidler 20 female Servant born Cumberland
From these census entries in Cumberland I'm still not certain who John Laidler the joiner is - the son of the oldest Laidler sibling - John baptised Allendale Northumberland in 1791? Did he marry Jane Brewis who had had an illegitimate son Henry before her marriage? Have you found them on censuses with John senior specified born Allendale?
JOHN LAIDLER
JANE BREWIES
Marriage: 30 MAR 1820 Wooler, Northumberland
Eleanor Forster appears to have lived on her brother Henry Laidler's farm in Cumberland from at least 1851 to 1871.
Regards
Valda
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alisporter
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Thank you for all that information. That appears to be the family.
John Laidler the Joiner's father gives Wooler as his birth place in 1851, I will check the other census entries. It is John Laidler in Blenkinsopp who states Talkin as his birth place, but he was born later around 1797.
Would Whitwham be a house name, or a place?
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Scotland; Porter, Legerwood
Northumberland; Porter, Ogle, Legerwood, Dixon, Kennedy, Iveson
Cumberland; Laidler
Wales; Evans, Walters, Morgan, Thomas
Somerset; Leigh, Cook
Oxfordshire; Denman
Middx; Chelsea; Benson; Finsbury; Macklin
Nottinghamshire; Perry
Cambridgeshire; Cropley
Berkshire; White
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alisporter
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Thanks for that suggestion Valda, I can see John Laidler, born Alendale on census 1841-1861. He is not the father of John Laidler, Joiner, nor is he John Laidler, born Talkin, in Blenkinsopp 1851!
Now I will try and trace the other Johns to see if I can establish some sort of link (if any!).
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Scotland; Porter, Legerwood
Northumberland; Porter, Ogle, Legerwood, Dixon, Kennedy, Iveson
Cumberland; Laidler
Wales; Evans, Walters, Morgan, Thomas
Somerset; Leigh, Cook
Oxfordshire; Denman
Middx; Chelsea; Benson; Finsbury; Macklin
Nottinghamshire; Perry
Cambridgeshire; Cropley
Berkshire; White
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Valda
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Posts: 7116
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Taken from
http://www.thenortheast.fsnet.co.uk/Place%20Name%20Meanings%20T%20to%20Y.htm
'Wham is still used as a dialect word in Northumberland, Cumbria, Scotland and Yorkshire to describe a marshy hollow or a hollow within a hill or a mountain. A number of Whams can be found in Northumberland including Ulwham and Ulgham (originally Ulweham) and Whitwham. The first two both mean the hollow frequented by an ul or an owl, the latter means white hollow and may have the same meaning as Hvitar Hvammar found in Iceland.'
Whitwham appears to be in or near Lambley - nearest larger place Haltwhistle - all in Northumberland but adjacent to the Brampton and Lanercost area in Cumberland. Wooler though still in Northumberland is further north and the other side of the Cheviot Hills which would form a transport barrier between the two areas.
I think the surname Laidler may be not uncommon in the Brampton/Haltwhistle area. Eleanor Forster's farm owning family seem in a slightly higher social class than Mary Laidler and her daughters in Newcastle. The Wooler Laidlers seem to be at this point complete red herrings irrespective of the police and joiner coincidences (such coincidences 'litter' family history).
I think you need to investigate the illegitimate baptism of Mary Laidler in Hayton and whether there was a bastardy order for the child as well as checking the Brampton parish registers thoroughly and those in the surrounding area for other possible Mary Laidler baptisms and/or Eleanor baptisms, marriages or burials. I would start from there instead of trying to tie Laidler families who lived/live in the area to Mary through later censuses, well passed the date of Mary's birth. If the Laidler surname was relatively common in the area that means you would have to research what might be several other Laidler families who in the end may have no connection to Mary. Even if you did that, to prove a possible connection to Mary you still have to go back to my opening suggestion in the hope of establishing any evidence which proves a connection.
This is a better methodology than trying to make possibly 'tenuous' connections to Laidler families through censuses when census evidence alone is not sufficient to prove such connections. Just because there is easier internet access to censuses you cannot rely on them alone when a birth like Mary's is pre the earliest census and she does not appear with her family on any of them. I think any evidence you might find to establish Mary's origins (unless you can find her on an earlier census) resides in Cumbria Record Office and not at this point on the Internet.
http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/archives/
Regards
Valda
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alisporter
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Thanks Valda, I will make enquiries with the link you suggest.
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Scotland; Porter, Legerwood
Northumberland; Porter, Ogle, Legerwood, Dixon, Kennedy, Iveson
Cumberland; Laidler
Wales; Evans, Walters, Morgan, Thomas
Somerset; Leigh, Cook
Oxfordshire; Denman
Middx; Chelsea; Benson; Finsbury; Macklin
Nottinghamshire; Perry
Cambridgeshire; Cropley
Berkshire; White
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Pages: 1 [2]
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