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Topic: CARTER family in Melbourn in 1861 Census (Read 1355 times)
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janan
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Hi
No hadn't slipped my mind - just didn't like the idea of this well to do lady stuck in St Luke's I suppose (goodness knows why - I'm not generally in favour of people getting better care by virtue of having money)   I think it is probably her but she isn't there in 41 - St Lukes is by the way, it opened 1751. As you say it is more difficult in 41 due to lack of birthplace.
Keep us posted with any further developments
Jan 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Jan,
Trust me to get the opening of St Luke's completely in the wrong century - only exactly 100 years out! And now I'm becoming pretty convinced that it's more than coincidence that it stated in that 1871 Hawkhurst Census that Elizabeth had been "a lunatic for 32 years", when the Asylum there itself opened in 1839. Almost as though they knew this lady really well by then - perhaps she'd been one of the first inmates.
Yes, I bet if we really looked harder we may well find she was incarcerated in Kent (near her family roots) in the 1841 and 1851; and your theory about what she may have been suffering from is entirely plausible. Does that illness manifest itself pretty much straight away after a pregnancy and birth?
For both her youngest children to be living/staying with their elderly grandparents in 1841 must have been quite a thing then.
Of course I'll keep you up to speed with whatever I discover re CARTER's via the ERO and pub lunch in Chigwell (I'm got this naive idea that this place will still be just the church and the pub and the local grammar school opposite, surrounded by fields and nothing much else!)
keith
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janan
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It starts a few days or weeks after birth.
Another link
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/depressionpostnatal.htm
Strange thing is although Northgrove house is said to be established in 1839 - in 41 William Harmer is a grocer (as Sheila already said) - so was he ever really doctor I wonder
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Janan,
Just had a look at the image of the Hawkhurst Asylum in the 1851 - as I'm sure you have many times. There are 8 patients there, 6 men and two women, with just their initials for identification. The nearest entry to Elizabeth CARTER is the fourth one down, a gentlewoman aged 50, born in Maidstone, Kent, but assigned the initials M.M. (I think!)
Wishful thinking on my part, no doubt, to imagine this is her in disguise...
keith
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janan
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She is also a widow!
I wonder if the records survive.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Janan,
Which, strictly speaking, the real Elizabeth CARTER wasn't until 1870...But yes, original records would be good to check against. Unfortunately I've e-mailed the Kent Record Office about possible records for the Hawkhurst Asylum, and they've written me a very obliging reply to say sorry, there don't seem to be any!
keith
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janan
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Just thought as the place burnt down in 1890 I don't suppose there would be 
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Janan,
Just had a look to see how many female "E.C.'s" there were in the 1851 Census - mostly patients in asylums and other institutions - and there were just under 80! Admittedly some are totally the wrong age and in an unlikely part of the U.K. - though some are in Kent - but I think I'd better give this all a rest for a few days until I get some fresh concrete evidence through the post or by visiting a County Record Office.
Anyway, today's little burst of batting the ideas back and forth has been fun, as usual...
very best wishes,
keith
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janan
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Sussex Ple Marylebone
Robert Carter 45 Merch N
Elizabeth Carter 45 Y
Jane Hubbs 40 Ind N
HO107/677/16/20 Pg32
Re whereabouts of Elizabeth in 41 - I think we may already have her above. Imagine Elizabeth becomes ill after the birth of Joseph; possibly, as is the way with mental illness, she was ill previously after some of the other children but recovered; no reason to expect she won't get better this time so Robert finds a quiet place for her to live with Jane Hubbs to care for her; come census night Jane is asked for head of household, well Robert Carter Merchant of course as he pays the rent, she then guesses ages for him and Elizabeth. There you go - good story
Hope you eventually get some concrete evidence re poor Elizabeth - I certainly think pursuing records for the Doddington born lady in St Lukes might be good move. I know there are many other EC's in 51 but she is the best fit I can see.
Happy hunting
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Janan,
Both this 1841 Sussex Place and 1851 St Luke's, I totally agree, are the best two fits we have so far for the whereabouts of Elizabeth in those Censuses. I noticed too that in the 1871 Census at the Hawkhurst Asylum, where for some reason all the patients had the number of years they'd been incarcerated set against their names (an excellent piece of family evidence, of course), there was another woman who'd been a psychiatric patient for 34 years, and would therefore have even pre-dated the 1839 start of this particular institution, i.e. was somewhere else before she came to Hawkhurst.
Perhaps her family tried to sort something out with friends or contacts in the early days/years of Elizabeth's illness, then might possibly have had her put in St Luke's, which wasn't far from where they lived (perhaps for a short while), then had her put into a place, finally, that was near her own VANE family in Kent. One wonders how much contact she had with any of the CARTER family once she'd gone into the Hawkhurst place.
Trying to look at the St Luke's Records would certainly confirm or discount that 1851 entry, as you say...
keith
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janan
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Hi Keith
Just thought you might like to know I was chasing a probable sideways relatives Rebecca Stockbridge (nee Carver born Bedford) and found her in High St Melbourn in 1861 near to her probable cousin William Crole Carver (who's father was William Carver minister of Melbourn Independent) and nextdoor to him is your Robert Carter. Small world
None of which brings me any closer to establishing just how these Carvers link to mine but one day 
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Janan,
You never know, a little more digging might produce a vital link. The journey I have experienced tracing these CARTER's from London in the 18thC to Cambs and several other geographical locations in the 19thC has been quite exhilarating...
It's also meant that I've taken an extra interest in literature written about 18thC London - shading in the background. Have recently read a biography of William Blake; an account of the attacks of The London Monster of 1790 or so; a book about the 18thC Gin Craze; various tracts by Daniel Defoe; and now I've started tucking into a biography about William Hogarth. (Not to mention a volume that contains the complete:"Boswell's Life of Johnson" which I bought in a bookshop just over a week ago on a short trip to Halifax. Sixteen hundred thin pages, shall save it for a rainy day (or a prolonged monsoon, more appropriately)
I'm certainly getting the flavour of things where Robert CARTER and sons strutted their stuff.
Might go to the CCRO tomorrow to see whether they have any useful 19thC maps of Melbourn, and will of course report back to you anything curious re CARTER/CARVER.
Very best wishes,
keith
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Keith Sherwood
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Hi again, Everyone,
Just thought I'd give an update to all you CARTER devotees who have put so much into helping me trace this ubiquitous family, both here and on other threads on Rootschat...
When I went to The Guildhall library last week I was delighted to discover that the priest who had written the entries for St Botolph's without Aldgate had put the addresses down for the parents of all the children baptised, including the children of Robert CARTER, probably born early 1760's - still haven't nailed him down - and Lydia, nee TIDMARSH, b. circa 1764; this covered 1788 and onwards. This verified Rosemary Lane as where they lived and maybe had their first clothes warehouse, with 1799 being their first appearance in The Minories. A large detailed 1790 map of the area by Holbrook gave individual buildings with numbers, so that was a fascinating look into late 18thC London.
Then today, quite by chance, I was having a look at that Abney Park Cemetery link, and there were both Robert and Lydia CARTER, Robert being interred on 25th March 1844 aged 80, and Lydia in 1852, aged 88 (forgotten the exact day). I've been there before to search for other ancestors, and it's a very special place - a bit of a cross between a nature reserve and a burial ground, with the winter and spring months being easier for searching for a particular headstone.
So guess who'll be coming out of King's Cross Station and jumping on a north-bound No 73 bus and heading for Stoke Newington in the not too distant future?
Before it all starts to grow too thick and tangled. Don't you just love this whole ancestral trail thing...?
Regards, keith
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janan
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Thanks for the update. How exciting
I've been in Wirksworth, Derbyshire this week treading in the footsteps of my Allsopps - mostly too poor for gravestones but have photoed a few possibles to chase up.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Keith Sherwood
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Janan,
Yes, it has been very exciting...Have too been away, down to Wiltshire/Dorset for a couple of nights; but I have absolutely no family roots down there. Couldn't resist taking a few shots of Sedgehill Church, though. Lovely clusters of primrose growing in the graveyard, and some very interesting recumbent gravestones. And wild deer coming out of the woods to feed as evening comes on. Not a CARTER to be seen, though - perhaps it's good to give them a bit of a break from time to time...
keith
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