Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!! Family History Local History

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Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!

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Topic: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!! (Read 1784 times)

tess1957
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Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« on: Sunday 15 February 04 16:14 GMT (UK) »

hi
really am at a loss and wondered if anyone could think of a way forward. gg grandmother Sarah Newman b 1862 Surrey. Went to work in service 1870s. Married the boss - a professor name Fitzherbert Williams m. 1881, after 8 years of marriage they had a daughter - Millicent in 1889. Fitzherbert then dies in 1890 - I forgot to say he was c30 years older than Sarah. In 1891 census Sarah is living with her mother Maria in the family home in Hale Farnham Surrey along with Millicent. Sometime after this and before 1901 census Sarah left for NZ -this thru verbal history passed down from Millicent. A postcard exists that Sarah sent from NZ of herself riding a horse - on the back is a dividing line so probably c1903-4 She signed the card With Love & Best Wishes SC. We have all assumed that she must have married after getting there but who knows?? A very nice person in NZ offered to do some look ups in NZ but could find nothing for Sarah Williams/Newman with no middle name unfortunately so am stuck with no idea how to get past this hurdle
Any suggestions would be gratefully received
Thanks teresa


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Re:Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 15 February 04 17:14 GMT (UK) »

Dear Teresa,

I have read your message a few times and find myself a little confused with what information you are trying to find out Huh

Are you looking for help on the Surrey side, if so maybe it is worth posting this question under Surrey.

Or, are you looking for help in New Zealand ?

Or are you looking for how Sarah arrived in New Zealand from Surrey England, if this is the case then it may be worth posting the message under Emmigrants !?

Or could it be all of above !

Regards

Sarah
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tess1957
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Re:Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #2 on: Monday 16 February 04 07:16 GMT (UK) »

hi sarah
thanks for your reply - sorry for confusing the issue - it makes sense to me !!
Basically im trying to trace Sarah in NZ - what happened to her etc.
I have her birth cert - her marriage cert to Fitzherbert - the census that shows she was in Hale Farnham in 1891 with her daughter.
Millicent told her daughters (only one is still alive) that Sarah had gone to NZ. We have the postcard/photo but nothing else to go on. As a last resort I guess I could spend a week or so at Kew searching the outgoing passenger lists for Southampton (her most likely port of departure??) but i was wondering if someone could think of another way of narrowing it down that i hadnt thought of?? I was hoping that someone had done a similar search and could think of something else - Im not sure what the procedure would have been in those days so dont know what records may have been kept. I dont think she had any money so may have applied for poor law relief - would she have travelled under her maiden name or married?
hope that makes it more clear
Teresa


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PaulineJ
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Re:Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 17 April 04 11:48 BST (UK) »

How likely is it that she married before departing for NZ? It may be worth looking at that possibility before you start trawling through passenger lists.

Pauline


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riley
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 12 February 05 09:45 GMT (UK) »

Hi Teresa,

I wondered if a clue lay in the postcard signed 'With Love & Best Wishes SC', so I went looking for a marriage of both Sarah Williams and Sarah Newman to a groom beginning with C after 1890-1920 and found one for Williams in 1911 which I matched to an Alfred George CORDNER, folio 7102 using Varcoes NZ Marriage Index
http://marvin.otago.ac.nz/marriages/marriages.php.

There were none for this time period for Newman. This marriage date is years later than your 1903/4 postcard by several years, but how certain are you of its date?

A Sarah Cordner died in 1946 in New Plymouth. I've drawn a very long bow here...

Regarding the ship she emigrated on, I suggest you leave it until you know more about the name she might have travelled under and can perhaps take an educated guess about the year and port of arrival.

Tor


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ELLERKER - Beverley ERY ENG
HEALEY - Staffordshire ENG
MURDOCH - Wigtownshire SCT
PALING - Nottinghamshire ENG
RILEY - Flamborough; Cottingham; South Dalton ERY, Manitoba CAN, & London ENG
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TAYLOR - London ENG
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tess1957
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 12 February 05 10:22 GMT (UK) »

Hi
Wow Riley - thanks for that - how kind of you - its so hard to know where to begin on a case like this as there are so many variables - all im truly sure of is that she (Sarah) must have left UK between the 1891 census and the 1901. The family always said it was NZ she went to but with no supporting evidence?? The photo of her on a horse is fascinating - it shows her riding astride on a nice looking horse with a western style (to my english eyes!) bridle. It doesnt look as if she just `posed` on the horse for the photo - she really was riding it. I did wonder if there was somewhere i could post the photo to get some feedback breed of horse etc. Someone might come up with something. All I can tell is that it must have been a chilly climate as she is well wrapped or that might just have been the fashion? The horse looks a bit like a quarter horse to me but im more familiar with horses in england.
Thank you again Riley
PS I have already checked for marriages in this country and have come up with nothing - she was a canny lass - after all she definitely married above her station - a servant girl marrying a professor the first time around - ive also looked for a will as well - nothing.


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gennig
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 12 February 05 14:07 GMT (UK) »

Hi Theresa

It wouldn't hurt to post the picture on here.

Genni


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tess1957
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 12 February 05 14:13 GMT (UK) »

Here it is then - hope ive done it alright!
Tess

sarah.jpg (28.52 KB, 440x286 - viewed 873 times.)
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gennig
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 13 February 05 00:41 GMT (UK) »

Hi Tess

Is there anything else on the back of the photo ie. postmark etc.

Genni


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tess1957
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 13 February 05 18:36 GMT (UK) »

here it is - thoughts please!

backofpostcardsarah_640_x_480.jpg (52.1 KB, 640x480 - viewed 327 times.)
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riley
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 13 February 05 20:37 GMT (UK) »

Hi Tess,

Looking at the reverse of the card it appears that Sarah was right-handed and wrote confidently and with style. It certainly seems to be 'SC' and not 'SG'.

You mentioned that the information source was Millicent's recollection. Was there any other NZ connection other than the mention of her mother?

Was Millicent also in NZ? Did she mention places, people, events, residences she lived in, a step-father, deaths of those close to her, etc?

Did Millicent go to school in NZ, where did she work, live, did she marry? If so, when and where? I presume she returned to ENG? When and why?

I checked NZ Telecom White Pages and found 7 Cordners which are certainly worth eliminating at;
http://www.whitepages.co.nz/Pages/WhitePages_SearchResultsDefault/0,2121,a1281,00.html?fpQuery=cordner&fplkey=&fpLoc=&fpListType=&fpExact=off&x=31&y=26

Regards, Tor


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gennig
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #11 on: Monday 14 February 05 02:07 GMT (UK) »

Hi Tess

The postcard is a "Universal Postal Union" one. So can tell you Australia and New Zealand didn't become members of this organisation until the 1/10/1907.

Cheers
Genni


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tess1957
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #12 on: Monday 14 February 05 06:38 GMT (UK) »

Hi
Thanks for your input - it really feels like I am making some progress at last thanks to help i am getting. I have posted the photo on an english site that has an interest in horses - they have fed back that the horse looks like a `whaler` and that the saddle might be of the australian stockmans type so have posted on the general board as well. Millicent (Sarah`s daughter by Fitzherbert) was left in England to be brought up by Sarah`s Mother. She believed her parents were never married for some reason - who knows what she was told? She was very young when Sarah left and didnt really remember her according to verbal history. To be truthful she was not the brightest button in the box - so i am having to assume she may have been incorrect in some of the stories she passed down - ie New Zealand was where she said Sarah went, but this could have well been New South Wales, or anywhere really. I am unaware of any other clues Sarah left apart from the postcard so its all i have to go on.
Tess


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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #13 on: Monday 14 February 05 07:07 GMT (UK) »

Tess

I noted that Fitzherbert Williams was a Widower on the 1881 census. Have you tried searching/contacting the family from his 1st marriage to see if they have any information.

Genni


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tess1957
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Re: Depressed - brickwall in NZ - any help pls!!
« Reply #14 on: Monday 14 February 05 07:17 GMT (UK) »

Hi Genni
I have in the last few days managed to find them in the 1871 Census Fitzherbert very helpfully was listed as John Fitzherbert Williams so it took me a while - I am not sure about that line of research, according to legend his family were not best pleased that he had a child with Sarah - I guess it was a bit of a scandal for a very working class girl to be having a child with a Proffessor/Schoolmaster/Literary Gentleman as he has variously been referred to!! Williams is also a very common name - I have had a look for some of the children mentioned in the 1871 census to see if they married but have only found the eldest son and they appear to have been living apart? The rest of the siblings were boarders together at one address after their Mother died. I would have imagined that there would have been little or no contact between Sarah and Fitzherberts family after he had died in 1890 if there was any at all.
Tess


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