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Topic: Working out relationships (Read 885 times)
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Christine in Portugal
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 474
Grandparents, Ernest & Emily Walker 1920
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I have recently been in contact with someone and we have a common ancestor and would like to know if anyone can work out our relationship.
Their gg grandfather was my ggg grandfather but he was married twice and the connection is with different wives.
Thanks in advance Christine
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Mallinson- Lepton Walker, Smith, Slater, Blacker - Farnley Tyas, Huddersfield Claybourne/Clayburn - Norton Doncaster Birkenshaw/Birkinshaw - Doncaster Hall - Skelbrooke, Doncaster Bisby - Campsall, Doncaster Hemsworth - Doncaster Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Elizabeth Revel
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Posts: 769
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Here is a chart which will help you sort it out.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/cousins.htm
Beth
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk Lancashire and Cheshire: Harding, Turner, Gandy, Rigby, Bancroft, Moorcroft, Wright Wiltshire: Webb, Hayter, Mussell, Curtice, Sheppard Hampshire: Harper, Rawlings Ireland: Revels, Qua, Alexander, Clegg Bucks, Northants, Derby, Leicester and Cheshire: Spokes, Glover, Sturgess, Attewell, Whiting, Lester, Hall |
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Christine in Portugal
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 474
Grandparents, Ernest & Emily Walker 1920
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Thank you
Christine
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Mallinson- Lepton Walker, Smith, Slater, Blacker - Farnley Tyas, Huddersfield Claybourne/Clayburn - Norton Doncaster Birkenshaw/Birkinshaw - Doncaster Hall - Skelbrooke, Doncaster Bisby - Campsall, Doncaster Hemsworth - Doncaster Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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bervonian
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Posts: 306
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Just in case you are still baffled, the relationship is third cousins, once removed.
Bervonian.
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behindthefrogs
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EDLIN
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Follow the simple rule of count the "g"s in the common ancestor.
These are three (gg grandfather) and four (ggg grandfather)
The smaller gives you the number of times cousin - third
and the difference the number of times removed - once
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Christine in Portugal
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 474
Grandparents, Ernest & Emily Walker 1920
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Thanks very much David that makes it more simple to understand
Christine
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Mallinson- Lepton Walker, Smith, Slater, Blacker - Farnley Tyas, Huddersfield Claybourne/Clayburn - Norton Doncaster Birkenshaw/Birkinshaw - Doncaster Hall - Skelbrooke, Doncaster Bisby - Campsall, Doncaster Hemsworth - Doncaster Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Newf
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the connection is with different wives.
so technically that would be half-3rd cousin etc ?
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk PLEDGER – 1678, Gt BardField, Essex EVERETT - 1830, Scoles, Norfolk & Epping, SX OSGATHORPE - 1825, North Kensington LILLEY – 1711, Ickleton, Cambs DAVISON – 1700-1710, Horncastle & Coningsby, Lincs BOWER – 1690-1700, Killinworth, Lincs CHASE – 1735, Kings Lynn, Norfolk LAIRD – 1777, Portsmouth, Hants & Kings Lynn, Norfolk GOWENLOCK – 1850, Carlisle KEW – 1814, Carlisle |
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misingo96
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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A more complicated relationship 
An unmarried woman has an illegitimate daughter and does not register the father's name on the birth record and the daughter is given the mother's surname. Many years later the woman marries and her husband accepts her by now teenage daughter into the family. At some stage the daughter, like her mother, has a child out of wedlock, and she too does not register the father's name on the birth record. Eventually, her mother and step-father adopt her baby.
What would be the step-father's and his wife's kinship to the baby - parents or grand-parents?
What would the child's kinship be to the step-father's parents? And, what would the kinship be to his mother's mother's parents?
What would be the child's ancestral line? Can the child follow the step-father's line?
Misingo
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Newf
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best to start your own thread - answers to your Q will be confusing to this thread's originator !
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk PLEDGER – 1678, Gt BardField, Essex EVERETT - 1830, Scoles, Norfolk & Epping, SX OSGATHORPE - 1825, North Kensington LILLEY – 1711, Ickleton, Cambs DAVISON – 1700-1710, Horncastle & Coningsby, Lincs BOWER – 1690-1700, Killinworth, Lincs CHASE – 1735, Kings Lynn, Norfolk LAIRD – 1777, Portsmouth, Hants & Kings Lynn, Norfolk GOWENLOCK – 1850, Carlisle KEW – 1814, Carlisle |
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behindthefrogs
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A half brother is a brother with whom you share one parent as distinct from a step brother who is the son of a spouse of one of your parents by a different marriage.
A half cousin is a cousin whose shared ancestor is only one of your grand parents. Having been born in a different marriage or possibly out of wedlock.
A half third cousin thus shares one of your gg grandparents in a similar way.
They cannot derive the half from similar relationships of intervening generations because only the blood line is of interest.
However if you go back to the eighteenth century all this breaks down because blood lines were not understood and "degrees of sanginuity" were very confused. This confusion was preserved in the Church's rules for who could marry whom right into the last century.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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behindthefrogs
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misingo96
The only blood line is to the grandmother and so that is the genetic relationship.
However assuming it was a legal adoption the legal relationship is parents.
The relationship of the adopted father is only a legal one of father.
The relationship of the the bloodmother of the child is even more interesting because she now becomes half sister legally to her own blood child who she has legally given up.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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misingo96
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thought that this thread was "Working out relationships" - or am I missing something?
Oh yes - the father of the daughter and the father of the daughter's child.
Ok - If I understand David's point - the bloodline to the grandmother is the important one and the child's ancestors are derived from the grandmothers parents. There is no relationship to the grandmother's husband's family other than the legal relationships through adoption and calling members of the husband's family uncle, aunt, etc., is purely a "nicety". For example - the child if even legally adopted would not be the great grandson/granddaughter of the husband's great great grandparents?? Surely therefore placing these people on your family tree is "stretching" things a little for the sake of expanding your family tree sideways rather than naturally up-down but with natural offshoot branches for aunts, uncles, cousins.
To widen the argument - if only the unmarried daughter had an illegitimate child, lets assume a male, and registered him under her family surname and the child continues to use that family name throughout his life - marriage, naming of his own children, and on his death record - then there is not only a bloodline with the grandmother but surely also with the grandfather, and their parents, etc., so the child has a legitimate right to the same family tree.
However, returning to my original example. The child has a bloodline link to the grandmother but not the grandfather - they adopt him - but the child does not take the grandfather/father(?) name but keeps his birth mother's surname - the same as his grandmother's maiden surname. Still with me?
The grandfather and grandmother never have any children of their own. It turns out that for the grandfather this is his second marriage and he already had children to his first wife. What is their relationship to the "adopted" child?
Eventually the child's birth mother marries and has children with her husband - what is their relationship to the first child? Also, where does the first child's family ties lie if they take on the mother's husbands surname through life and continue that name throughmarriage, children, etc.?
Complicated or what? But it must have happened for someone?
Would be interested to know my fellow RootsChatters point of view!
misingo.
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behindthefrogs
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Two points
Firstly it is usual on adoption to take the name of the adoptive father otherwise it is just a fostering relationship.
Once adoption has taked place then legally the position is exactly the same as though the parents were birth parents. Thus strictly the children of the previous marriage would be half brothers and sisters, and the grandparents, great grandparents etc have that relationship.
I have adopted cousins but have never regarded them as anything other than cousins which is their legal position. They were similarly treated as grandchildren by my grand parents. They are treated on my family tree in exactly the same way as though they were birth children although the fact that they were adopted is mentioned in the supporting notes. This is not a problem because the fact that they were adopted has never been a secret to them or any of the family. If this were not the case this becomes a very tricky problem and they can only be recorded as though they were birth children.
Lets face it unless you do genetic matching of all your "cousins" you can never be absolutely sure of your bloodlines and even then there are areas which can't be proved.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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misingo96
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Take your point David, but if legal adoption had taken place surely the child would be using the adopted father(grandfather) surname and that would be the child's legal name through adulthood, marriage and parenting of own children?
Also, having been legally adopted surely the only way of reverting back to the birth mother's surname or her eventual marriage surname could only be achieved through another legal action?
And if there was nothing more than a fostering relationship - surely that would be straight forward - use mother's surname or eventual married surname.
In genealogy terms though would the adopted person be part of the blood grandmother's husband family tree - do they have any rights to such claims? and for what purpose or benefit? To gather additional data from others in the genealogy fraternity by claiming to be a direct line relative???
Special interests aside, specific surnames, locations, professions, eras, etc., most of us are into genealogy to discover our family ancestors (direct line), warts and all - to include uncles, aunts, cousins, grandparent's brothers, sisters, etc., and their offspring is acceptable but where does it stop? Where's the benefit in claiming to be "related" to some famous/infamous person if there is no direct bloodline to connect you with them.
misingo
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behindthefrogs
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Interestingly you don't have to do anything legal to change your surname although it is usual to do it by deed poll. It only becomes aproblem if you use the change to coverup something illegal. That is not to say that it is easy to do particularly nowadays whenall sorts of other complications arise.
If you think it ha been done its worth checking the London Gazette.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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