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Topic: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands (Read 11100 times)
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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You've been busy! 
Well it's all well and good, but I couldn't find the "correct" Neil/Niel Sutherland on ScotlandsPeople at all, so I assumed he died before 1855... even the census results I got were completely different to the ones you have there!  It's too late at night to be searching through all this stuff right now, but mark my words I'll be back at this tomorrow! Once I finish work... and help my parents with stuff... and do other things... dammit. Soon! 
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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You mean I've been bored, and this little challenge gave me something useful to do 
Niel/Neil/Neal Sutherland should have died between 1861 and 1871 but might be best to wildcard the search and just search for N Sutherland as Scotland's People is notorious for showing exactly what you type and that only. Another way of getting our money so we have to do multiple searches!!
I also found this on google when I was mucking around with Neil Sutherland, which seems to suggest he died in 1865. But who knows how acurate this is or not.
On website: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kaob/d121.htm
Neil SUTHERLAND(2167) was born in 1780. He died in 1865. Parents: William SUTHERLAND and Ann SUTHERLAND.
He was married to Janet CAMPBELL on 29 Dec 1825 in Latheron. (2168)
William SUTHERLAND(2172) was born about 1755 in Latheron.(2173) Parents: Donald SUTHERLAND and Margaret SUTHERLAND.
He was married to Ann SUTHERLAND. (2174) Children were: Neil SUTHERLAND , Esther SUTHERLAND, Marjorie SUTHERLAND, Amelia SUTHERLAND, Frances SUTHERLAND.
Donald SUTHERLAND(2129) was born on 4 Sep 1730 in bapt Watten. He died in 1774.
He was married to Margaret SUTHERLAND on 26 Feb 1759 in Latheron. (2130) Children were: William SUTHERLAND , Alexander SUTHERLAND, George SUTHERLAND.
Just for completeness I searched for a death for Neil Sutherland in 1865 on Scotland's People and one match comes up, it is the only match that comes up between 1861 and 1871 and it appears to be in Latheron, Caithness so it is looking hopeful..only wish I had some credits 
I am eager to hear what you find, so post it here if you can 
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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I've already viewed that N Sutherland's death certificate by the looks of things...
I probably dismissed it instantly since it only has Janet Campbell on as his wife; no mention of Janet Bain! 
I've not got the time to look into this in depth right now (shattered), but maybe tomorrow night. One thing I'll say is that other than Janet and William, none of the other names you mentioned fits in with my family names. Not that that necessarily means anything of course!
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Logged
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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Hey Bryce,
Don't dismiss it so quickly, I had the exact same situation with a family in Latheron.
I had an Anne Nicoll parents John Nicoll and Jane Tait (on her death cert, and verified with census data). I had a marriage for John Nicoll and Jane Tait in 1840 in Latheron, which fit with their first child in 1841 and the 1841 census which showed mum, dad and child (and his sister) but no-one else. His death cert in 1865 showed his widow as Jane Tait, and his parents......so everything seemed to fit yes? Well it was only that I found a gravestone when I was up there last year for him and his wives Margaret Morrison (died 1839) and Jane Tait (died 1895)
So no mention of a first wife anywhere, not even on the OPR record for his second marriage  To this day cannot find anything on her at all, no marriage to John Nicoll in the records and no children as far as I can tell. So it can and does happen, these disappearing wives. But you my dear have a lot more to go on.
Lets look at the proven facts:
Death cert for Angus Sutherland 1888 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
Marriage cert for Esther Sutherland 1877 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
Death cert for Esther Sutherland 1900 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
So we can glean from this the they are siblings and that Neil and Janet were deceased by 1877.
So Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain were having children between 1803 and 1824 at least.
There are only 2 marriages around this time for Neil Sutherland these are:
Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain 17 Dec 1802 Latheron, Caithness
Neil Sutherland and Janet Campbell 29 Dec 1825 Latheron, Caithness
So that would fit with Janet Bain dying and Neil remarrying as he would have had young children to have looked after
So logically if you look at the OPR for the second marriage it 'should' say widower against Neil's name (but then remembering my little story it didn't for John Nicoll!)
As I gave you Esther Sutherland's census returns from 1841 you have more info to go on. Esther married her first husband William Bain between 1841 and 1851 so you have her with her 'parents' in 1841. This is the only census that fits for 'your' Esther Sutherland.
1841 census - Knockallie, Latheron, Caithness
Niel Sutherland 60yrs Fisherman born in county
Jannet Sutherland 35yrs born in county
Jannet Sutherland 20yrs born in county
Esther Sutherland 15yrs born in county
Isabella Sutherland 10yrs born in county
Robert Sutherland 8yrs born in county
George Sutherland 6yrs born in county
Alexander Sutherland 4yrs born in county
William Sutherland 1yr born in county
Esther is with her father and what seems to be her step mum Janet Campbell. We know from the death cert for Neil Sutherland in 1865 (the Neil that fits the census returns I gave you) that he was married to Janet Campbell (doesn't mean he wasn't married before this though) as my John Nicoll's death cert showed only his second wife too. The fact that there is an elder sister Jannet also there adds weight to the assumption that Neil was married twice as there are 2 children with him in 1841 that are born pre his marriage to Janet Campbell.
I think it would be a good idea to spend some time at New Register House to try and find deaths for the children in the 1841 census to see who they put down as their parents. Isabella down should say Janet Campbell as their mother and Esther up should say Janet Bain as their mother.
There is no guarantee that this is your family but I think that the evidence is leaning strongly towards it
Check the OPR's for the marriages and some deaths and see what you think ok
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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Oh, just had a thought
Why not check the deaths for the grave I found??
Grave 214
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.
Unfortunately Adam died pre-registration but Donald and Amelia did not (not sure if Donald is also a child on Neil Sutherland as the grave does not state this but worth a try)
Also Janet Sutherland (daughter of Neil) is with him till 1861 so you should be able to find a death for her as she is post registration also.......and too old to be a daughter of Janet Campbell's
Good luck mate
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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Last post for a while I promise
Had a look at Donald & Amelia's census returns and what do you know they have a son called Neil so it is looking possible that he is a son of Neil's too. He also lives in the same place in 1851
1841 - Melton, Caithness
Donald Sutherland M 25yrs Shoemaker b. Caithness
Emly Sutherland M 25yrs b. Caithness
1851 census - Balnabruich, Latheron, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Head M 36yrs Shoemaker b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Wife M 36yrs b. Edinburgh, Midlothian
Neil Sutherland Son 9yrs Scholar b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Adam Sutherland Son 5yrs b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Emlen Sutherland Dau 1yr b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
1861 census - Knockalley, Latheron, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Head M 48yrs Shoemaker b. Dunnet, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Wife M 48yrs Shoemaker's wife b. Dunnet, Caithness
Neil Sutherland Son 18yrs Shoemaker (journeyman) b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Adam Sutherland Son 14yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Dau 11yrs Shoemaker's dau b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Dau 8yrs Shoemaker's dau b. Dunbeath, Caithness
1871 census - Knockalley, Dunbeath Estate, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Head M 56yrs Shoemaker master b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Amelia Sutherland Wife M 56yrs Shoemaster's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Ann Sutherland Serv 20yrs General Serv b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Donaldina Sutherland Dau 14yrs Servant domestic b. Dunbeath, Caithness
1881 census - Knockally, Dunbeath, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Head Wid 66yrs Shoemaker b. Dunbeath, Caithness
happy hunting
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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Not having much luck with ScotlandsPeople anyway! None of these people seemed to die. I got Esther Sutherland's death certificate, but obviously you'd told me that information already. I view Neil/Janet Campbell's marriage on the OPR and nowhere does it mention he's a widower, so perhaps they were just lazy in Caithness.
If I were to go to New Register House, would you... erm... help me?
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Logged
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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Of course I would
Do you want to go this week sometime? I am between jobs so now or never if you want my undivided attention
Thursday is bad but otherwise just let me know when you want to go and I'll come with, do you want to go for a full day or a half day?
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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Friday or Monday would be okay I think... what's better for you? Full day would possibly be more fruitful! I'd pay for you.
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Logged
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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What a gentleman
Seeing it is already Tuesday, how about we plan for Friday (that is 27th). If this is your first time to NRH then yeah a full day would make more sense. We would need to meet there about 8:30ish to make sure we get a seat, is this ok?
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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Yes it's my first time, and yes that should be fine! Excited now!
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Logged
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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Do you think you could meet me at Waverley Train Station at 8am? That's when my train arrives, and I'm vaguely aware of where Register House is in relation to it.
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Logged
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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Sounds good, I'll wait at the top of the Waverley Steps, you've got my mobile in case you can't find me, and NRH is really close to the train station, so we'll be there with heaps of time
Jenny
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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ostler
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 346
Great Granddad John Angus Sutherland (1875-1963)
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W00t!
On a semi-related note, I'm going up to Caithness next month for a holiday, and even though I'm with my parents and my girlfriend I'm planning on visiting a few cemeteries, of course. Is there any way of finding out where relations are buried other than looking at every single grave? I assume not, and in which case, is there a list of cemeteries somewhere?
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Logged
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All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler, Terras (and all variations!!)
Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)
England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon
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JenClark
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 925
Exhausted yet content!
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There is a link for graves in Latheron: http://www.graven-images.org.uk/
SKS has transcribed them all and put pictures of the internet and all, that is how I found your Angus Sutherland he is in Latheron Old Cemetery (which is now the Clan Gunn Museum)
Grave 226
In memory of.
Angus Sutherland died at Badbea 31st October 1888 aged 85.
Wife Janet Gow died 8th November 1841 aged 28.
Erected by his son William.
You might have to e-mail the chappy who did it to figure out where grave 226 is in the cemetery as it is quite....how should I say it......overcrowded
Grave 214 was:
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.
So another rellie, otherwise the site has Latheron New Cemetery and Clyth Cemetery too, be good to have a look through them before you go.
Jenny
P.S There are burial grounds at Berriedale (New and Old), Old is very overgrown, a beautiful place to visit but hard to find anyone, and new might be a bit new for your folks, having said that it is where I found my John Nicoll (he has a table grave there) as I learnt 'New' wasn't just because they filled up the old cemetery it was for 'new' settlers in town (aka not locals).
PPS You MUST visit Badbea Clearance Village near Berriedale on the cliffs as your family lived there, there is a memorial stone and some ruins, but is amazingly moving.
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Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill
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