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Topic: Montagu in America (Read 227 times)
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rubyrose
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Posts: 438
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Hi All
Just been reading Colin's email and I am hoping you can help me find my actor ancestor. I don't have much information and don't think he'll be as famous as Colin's actor, but here goes.
I am looking for John Henry Montagu and his 3 or 4 daughters. His daughter Mabel is my great grandmother and she was born in 1872 in America. On her marriage certificate she gives her father's name as John Montagu (deceased) and profession as actor. On Mabel's sister's (Gladys born 1875) marriage certificate the information is John Henry Montagu (deceased), profession actor. Both Mabel and Gladys married in Liverpool, England.
This branch of the family is a nightmare and I think Mabel may also have been known as Florence and that there is another sister called Lina.
Florence and Lina are in the 1891 census in Liverpool, England and Mabel is in the 1901(British subject). My grandfather (Mabel's son) was born in Liverpool in 1894. I cannot find any records before 1891.
I'm sorry this sounds confusing - I am confused!
Anyway, if I recap it might help.
John Henry Montagu, b England but living in America between 1870 and 1891 approx. Died before 1902.
Mabel Montagu b America 1872 in Liverpool 1901
Gladys b America 1875 in Liverpool 1902
Florence b America 1873 (might be Mabel) in Liverpool 1891
Lina b America 1870 in Liverpool 1891
To make matters worse, the name varies between Montagu and Montague on the marriage and census records.
I am sorry but there is no English record of where in America any of them were born but if someone could have a quick look to see if they are in any of the American records, I would much appreciate it. Stop me burning the midnight oil trying to find these missing relatives!
With many thanks.
Ruby
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBAKER - Lancashire, Cheshire, BUCHANAN - Glasgow, Lancashire, LAWRENCE - Jamaica, Lancashire, JONES - Shropshire, Lancashire, SHAWCROSS - Lancashire, India, MONTAGU - Lancashire, America, MORRISON - Fife, Lancashire, SEDDON DUTTON HESKETH - Lancashire, WHITEHEAD - Yorkshire, WIDDOWS - Ireland |
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KathMc
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2620
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Do you have a year of birth for the father? I haven't been able to find them in the census for 1870 or 1880. Did he perform anywhere else in the world?
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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rubyrose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 438
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Hi Kath
Unfortunately I don't have a year of birth but if Lina was the first child and he didn't marry too late in life, I'm thinking mid 1840s, early 1850s. Don't even know whereabouts in England he was born but because on the 1901 British census Mabel says she is a british subject born America, I am guessing that her father was English.
This is my mother's side of the family and she died when I was six and we lost touch with my grandparents, so I don't know very much, only what I have found out through old records which isn't a lot!
I have looked at Music Hall and Variety and other theatre web sites, but can't find any mention of John Montagu, which leads me to believe he must have been a supporting actor, perhaps part of a touring company.
Thanks very much for looking, maybe this is going to be my brickwall!
Regards
Ruby
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBAKER - Lancashire, Cheshire, BUCHANAN - Glasgow, Lancashire, LAWRENCE - Jamaica, Lancashire, JONES - Shropshire, Lancashire, SHAWCROSS - Lancashire, India, MONTAGU - Lancashire, America, MORRISON - Fife, Lancashire, SEDDON DUTTON HESKETH - Lancashire, WHITEHEAD - Yorkshire, WIDDOWS - Ireland |
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aghadowey
RootsChat Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 7679
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Ruby- could John Montagu(e) been his 'real name' and he used a stage name in US?
Ancestry.com has immigration records available at the moment (think till end of month)- might find him there?
American research is difficult unless you know which state to search in- and each records available, especially online, vary greatly from state to state.
If you have any other clues, like when and where daughters were born, try posting them and maybe one of us will be able to help.
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KathMc
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Who were the girls living with in the 1891 census? That might give a clue. We will work on this brickwall for you. I had the same kind of thing on my mom's side and I've cracked it back some.
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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KathMc
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2620
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Another idea might be to try to track down some other living relatives. Can you find Gladys's descendants anywhere? Did Florence or Lina marry? That is how I cracked my mom's side. Determination and dumb luck finding some living relatives.
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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KathMc
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2620
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Ruby,
I had a peek at the 1891 census. The index says the girls were born in american Samoa, but the actual census says America  . Why would they index it that way?  And according to Wikipedia, it wasn't American Samoa until 1899, so that can't be right. How strange.
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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rubyrose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 438
Mum - thanks to RC Restorers
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Hi Kath
I've seen this happen more than once, I think its a transcribers mistake, American Samoa is at the top of the drop down menu whereas United States is at the bottom. If transcriptions are being done by people whose first language is not English perhaps they don't associate America with United States and just go for the option with America in it.
I've just posted another big long email explaining the Montagues and answering all the other questions and it appears to have gone astray. I'll give it another ten minutes and then I'll have to write it again.
Cheers
Ruby
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBAKER - Lancashire, Cheshire, BUCHANAN - Glasgow, Lancashire, LAWRENCE - Jamaica, Lancashire, JONES - Shropshire, Lancashire, SHAWCROSS - Lancashire, India, MONTAGU - Lancashire, America, MORRISON - Fife, Lancashire, SEDDON DUTTON HESKETH - Lancashire, WHITEHEAD - Yorkshire, WIDDOWS - Ireland |
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rubyrose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 438
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Hi Kath
Well, I don't know what happened to that post, it took me ages to try and get everything in order and on the page, wonder where it went?
Anyway, I'll try to get it all down again.
Name:
Both Mabel and Gladys who married in Liverpool have the name Montagu(e) and give their father as John Montagu, actor, deceased on the marriage certificates. So it looks as if the name was really Montague
You've looked up the 1891 census so I don't need to put that information down again.
My grandfather, John Shawcross, is born in Liverpool in 1894.
In 1901 Mabel Carpenter (b 1873 in America) was living in Ivy Leigh, West Derby with George Carpenter b Isle of Man, mariner, and son Eric Carpenter b 1894 in Liverpool.
In 1902 Mabel Carpenter, widow, married Herbert Shawcross in Liverpool. Mabel's father on the marriage certificate is John Montagu, actor, deceased.
Between 1906 and 1936 Mabel, Herbert and John Shawcross are shown on various voters lists and street directories for Liverpool.
In 1936 when Herbert died John Shawcross, son, is the notifier.
There is no record anywhere of a marriage between Mabel Montagu and George Carpenter neither is their a birth record for Eric Carpenter. There is also no birth record for a John Shawcross in the right place at the right time. I am now starting to think that my grandfather, John Shawcross, is not Herbert's son and perhaps not George Carpenter's either.
My grandfather was in the Liverpool police and a few weeks ago I managed to get his police service record. In the record it states that John Shawcross, by birth certificate, is Eric Montague. So I find the birth index record for Eric Montague without any trouble at all and send off for it asap, hoping that there will be a father's name in the box and expecting the mother to be Mabel Montague.
When the certificate arrives there is no name in the father's box and to my absolute surprise the mother is shown as Florence Montague. So, the mystery deepends, are Florence and Mabel the same person or did Mabel taken on Florence's child?
On my grandfather's death certificate it states his name as John Eric Shawcross. So the Eric is the only link to the past and his birth name.
Gladys Montagu married John William Cooper in 1902 in Liverpool but as british census records have only been published up to 1901, I have no idea what happened to them.
Can't find Lina in any records other than the 1891.
Is this the end of the line? Is it possible to solve the mystery? Mabel made a really good job of covering her tracks, if that was her intention.
Cheers
Ruby
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBAKER - Lancashire, Cheshire, BUCHANAN - Glasgow, Lancashire, LAWRENCE - Jamaica, Lancashire, JONES - Shropshire, Lancashire, SHAWCROSS - Lancashire, India, MONTAGU - Lancashire, America, MORRISON - Fife, Lancashire, SEDDON DUTTON HESKETH - Lancashire, WHITEHEAD - Yorkshire, WIDDOWS - Ireland |
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KathMc
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2620
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Ruby,
I am even more intrigued now.  Very fascinating stuff here. I wish Gladys had married someone with a less common name. Maybe you could try to find Gladys's death certificate and see who the notifyer on that was. I will do some more searching with this info, but probably tomorrow morning. I'll let you know what I find. 
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3179
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What was the address on John/Eric's birth certificate? Street addresses were given even when the place of birth was a hospital or other institution, and if it was something like that then there might be other records about his birth you could find.
I find a reference to an H. J. Montague, an actor in San Francisco, including this in The Times:
The Times, Tuesday, Aug 13, 1878; pg. 3; Issue 29332; col A
A telegram from San Francisco announces the death yesterday of H. J. Montague, the actor.
http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/tf4q2nb5fr/?layout=metadata&brand=calisphere - there's a picture of him here.
It seems he was English - ah, but unfortunately another article shows he was a Henry James, not a Henry John. There's also a James Montague, born in the US but a British subject, an actor/comedian, in Lancashire in 1881 - a possible relative?
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rubyrose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 438
Mum - thanks to RC Restorers
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Hi Jorose
On Eric's birth certificate the address is 100 Roscommon Street, Everton, but there is this strange little notation in the column for 'where and when born'. It is written as 100, Roscommon Street USA but in the residence of informant column it says 100 Roscommon Street, Everton. Maybe the registrar was indicating that the mother was American. Roscommon Street still exists in Liverpool today.
With regard to Henry James, I had already investigated him. He died quite young and his estate was left to his mother so I can only assume he never married.
The James, born in USA and living in Little Bolton in Lancashire, is one of quite a few Montague's in the acting profession in England in the 1800s. The most interesting one I found was a John Montague, born in London in 1823 who is a 'professor of legerdemaine'. Apparently this means sleight of hand so I assume he is a magician. Never heard that profession before.
The only John Henry Montague I have found is a House Painter, living in Liverpool in 1891, born in Ireland, whose first child, James, was born in New York in 1865. All his other children were born in Liverpool and I can't find any connection to my relatives.
Thanks very much for your interest and your help. I think this is going to be a hard one to solve.
Regards
Ruby
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBAKER - Lancashire, Cheshire, BUCHANAN - Glasgow, Lancashire, LAWRENCE - Jamaica, Lancashire, JONES - Shropshire, Lancashire, SHAWCROSS - Lancashire, India, MONTAGU - Lancashire, America, MORRISON - Fife, Lancashire, SEDDON DUTTON HESKETH - Lancashire, WHITEHEAD - Yorkshire, WIDDOWS - Ireland |
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Christopher
RootsChat Marquessate
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St Patrick's Night at Bunratty.
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Hi Ruby,
I linked your Actors thread to this one.
Christopher
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