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Pages: [1] 2
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Topic: WILLIAMS births, Great Torrington (Read 525 times)
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debbi2k
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 803
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WILLIAMS- Rebecca daughter of John and Mary BAPTISED Oct 25, 1812 in Great Torrington.
Rebecca is the earliest child baptised but I couldnt find a marriage in Great Torrington for them.
This are possibles for Johns baptism,but not him definatly!
WILLIAMS- John Friendship son of Edward, a yeoman and Honnor and baptised on April 10th, 1793
WILLIAMS- John son of Daniel, a cordwainer and Elizabeth baptised Sep 2nd, 1791
Either could be him but I would think its probably the 2nd one.
Best Wishes
Debbi
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Emery,Willis,Cawsey,Gibbings,Stevens and Newcombe;Devon
Monk,Griffths,Kingdon ; Gloucs,Oxfordshire and Bristol
Janes;Woolwich,Charlton
Sculpher;Norfolk,Bermondsey
Grubb:Wiltshire
Morgan and Davis;Eglwysilan,Glam
Kingdon,Saunders,Greedy,Tarr;Somerset
Poore;Berkshire
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ard
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 410
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Thanks for looking Debbi. Naturally the less info we have to start with, the more iffy the search results are going to be!
Were there many children born to John and Mary, do you know? Maybe the some of the names could give clues.
I know only of Rebecca's brother Roger because he was living with her in 1851 (Langteglos by Camelford, Cornwall ). He is quite a bit younger (b C 1825), so he could even have a different mother, I suppose.
I will work on the premise that my Rebecca's mother was Mary and see where that leads me. It's something anyway.
Do you have a birth record for John Lyne, mother Rebecca and father (unknown) Lyne?
My ancestors of the time seemed to have been somewhat mobile (sometimes in Devon, Cornwall or even Wales) so there is not telling where John and Mary might have married and lived !!!! Not exactly uncommon names either (first or surname)!
I haven't found them (John and Mary) in any census, not really knowing who to look for. John may still have been alive in 1841, at least.
In 1851 census, the occupation of Rebecca's son from her first marriage (John Lyne b C1833) was cordwainer... so that could be a clue; although, in Rebecca's marriage record (second, to John Harding) her father is noted as being a labourer.
John Lyne, son in law, unm, 18, Cordwainer, b. Devon Torrington
Do you have a birth record for John Lyne, mother Rebecca and father (unknown) Lyne?
I don't have a record for her first marriage, likely around 1832/33.
Thanks again,
ard
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CNL-DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;Wilkey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin; Harding;Williams;Leach;Martin;Hewett;
KNT:Foster;Piper;Wagon; Henry;Burville;Hobbs;Briggs;
ESX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon; Stack;Whelms?
MDX:Gruber;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Walters;Ricketts;Shortland;
LCN:Burton;Blackburn;
YSE:Hoffmann(Birkenfeld,DEU)
SCOT:Dick;Frew;Halliday;Leggat;Stevenson;Williamson;Houston;Lang; Blair
Richmond;Pollock;McLachlan; McDonald;
NIr:Ferguson;Black
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debbi2k
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 803
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WILLIAMS John of John and Mary Baptised on Feb 24, 1811
There are none before John above and the records I have used stop at 1813 so I can't tell if there were anymore after.
I can not look for John Lyne/Line as his baptism would be after 1813.
The marriage is also too late.
Best Wishes
Debbi
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Emery,Willis,Cawsey,Gibbings,Stevens and Newcombe;Devon
Monk,Griffths,Kingdon ; Gloucs,Oxfordshire and Bristol
Janes;Woolwich,Charlton
Sculpher;Norfolk,Bermondsey
Grubb:Wiltshire
Morgan and Davis;Eglwysilan,Glam
Kingdon,Saunders,Greedy,Tarr;Somerset
Poore;Berkshire
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 6990
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1841 census HO107 243/2 folio 6 page 6
Culleyford Frithelstock Devon
John Williams 55 Devon Ag lab
Mary Williams 55
Mary Williams 12 Devon
Rebacca Line 25
John Line 8
Roger Williams was in Great Torrington on the 1841 census. Adult ages rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
1851 census HO107 1894 folio 474
Colliford Frithelstock Devon
James Williams 35 Great Torrington Head Married Farm Labourer
Elizabeth Williams 33 Buckland Wife Married Glover
Mary Williams 8 Frithelstock Daughter
Fanny Williams 6 Frithelstock Daughter
Hannah Williams 4 Frithelstock Daughter
Elizabeth Williams 2 Buckland Daughter
Two doors away
Colliford
John Williams 70 Little Torrington Head Married Farm Labourer
Mary Williams 23 Great Torrington Daughter Glover
William H Williams 1 Great Torrington Grandson
and a possible for wife Mary
HO107 1894 folio 588
Calf Street Great Torrington Devon
Judith Cock 68 Littleham, Devon, Head Widow Seamstress
Fanny Cock 48 Black Torrington, Devon, Niece Married Seamstress
Mary Williams 69 Gt Torrington, Devon, Niece Married Charwoman
William Cock 4 Gt Torrington, Devon, Nephew
Deaths Dec 1839
Lyne John Torrington 10 169
Great Torrington parish records are not on the IGI but Little Torringtons are. I can't see a baptism for John on the IGI however.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 6990
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You do not get age included in the GRO death registration index until 1866 so I can't say whether this John Lyne was an adult or not. Devon is very poorly served on the national burial index and the Devon Family History Society's burial (and their marriage index - useful to search for Rebecca and John's marriage on) only goes up to 1837.
http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/
Without seeing the Great Torrington parish records I'm afraid I could only speculate on how other Williamses born in Great Torrington could be connected. Either that or in the case of James you could obtain the details of his father from his own marriage.
Marriages Jun 1841
HARDING Elizabeth Torrington 10 507
WILLIAMS James Torrington 10 507
Regards
Valda
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debbi2k
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 803
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I will take a look at that marriage when I next go to Barnstaple Record Office.
Hope that will help
Debbi
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Emery,Willis,Cawsey,Gibbings,Stevens and Newcombe;Devon
Monk,Griffths,Kingdon ; Gloucs,Oxfordshire and Bristol
Janes;Woolwich,Charlton
Sculpher;Norfolk,Bermondsey
Grubb:Wiltshire
Morgan and Davis;Eglwysilan,Glam
Kingdon,Saunders,Greedy,Tarr;Somerset
Poore;Berkshire
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ard
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 410
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Thank you Valda and Debbi. This is great, this line has been unfolding rather slowly!
Already , it is looking interesting given that James Williams married Elizabeth HARDING (the census says she's from Buckland, though not which) given that Rebecca, as a widow, married John HARDING born in Buckland Brewer.
Looking at Harding data that I have, I see that John did have a sister Elizabeth , Christening: 16 Nov 1817 Buckland Brewer - which fits the married Elizabeth WILLIAMS, age wise. I don't have who she married but it looks like I may be finding out!
I noticed that the grandchild with John WILLIAMS in 1851 was William H. Williams. It could well be that the H stands for Harding - at least with Rebecca's children, her maiden name was used as a middle name (Williams) for at least some of her children; I'm figuring that this might be common practice. I'll see what free BMD has to offer.
If James wasn't Rebecca's brother, my guess is that he'd be at least a cousin.
If a record just says " Torrington," is the assumption Great Torrington, or could it just as easily be Little or Black...? Same with "Buckland", since there are more than one.
I wonder if John and Mary had been married in Little Torrington?
Thank you for the little breakthrough. It's always exciting.
ard
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CNL-DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;Wilkey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin; Harding;Williams;Leach;Martin;Hewett;
KNT:Foster;Piper;Wagon; Henry;Burville;Hobbs;Briggs;
ESX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon; Stack;Whelms?
MDX:Gruber;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Walters;Ricketts;Shortland;
LCN:Burton;Blackburn;
YSE:Hoffmann(Birkenfeld,DEU)
SCOT:Dick;Frew;Halliday;Leggat;Stevenson;Williamson;Houston;Lang; Blair
Richmond;Pollock;McLachlan; McDonald;
NIr:Ferguson;Black
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ard
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 410
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I'm wondering now if Mary's maiden name was Cook or Cock - Mary would have been born around 1782, at Frithelstock.
I looked up the James Williams' children on free BMD and have found them, although some have two possibilities. It appears that for John H. , the H stands for Henry, not Harding. Ah, well! It was a thought.
Another middle name scenario is what gives me the idea that Mary Williams' maiden name was Cook or Cock.
There were two Hannah Williams births in 1847 in Torrington, according to Free BMD: one was Hannah Williams (march quarter), the other Hannah Cook Williams (June quarter).
Putting that together with the probable Mary Williams, married, in the 1851 census household of her widowed aunt Judith Cock, it makes a nice connection (assuming that either Cock or Cook was a transcription error.)
Just playing with some ideas. Sometimes they work  sometimes they don't 
Indeed the IGI doesn't have much to offer.
ard
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CNL-DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;Wilkey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin; Harding;Williams;Leach;Martin;Hewett;
KNT:Foster;Piper;Wagon; Henry;Burville;Hobbs;Briggs;
ESX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon; Stack;Whelms?
MDX:Gruber;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Walters;Ricketts;Shortland;
LCN:Burton;Blackburn;
YSE:Hoffmann(Birkenfeld,DEU)
SCOT:Dick;Frew;Halliday;Leggat;Stevenson;Williamson;Houston;Lang; Blair
Richmond;Pollock;McLachlan; McDonald;
NIr:Ferguson;Black
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 6990
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A possible
1841 census HO107 221/22 folio 12 page 18
Well Street Great Torrington Devon
James Williams 20 Devon male servant
in the house of John Moore a 67 year old butcher ad his wife Ann 75
Judith Cock's married name was obviously Cock not her maiden name. Her Cock niece and nephew would be from her husband's family. On the 1841 census (clearly Cock) she is in Torrington with 70 year old James Cock a mason and 25 year old John a shoemaker.
Given the huge age range from a 4 year old nephew to a 69 year old niece to a 68 year old woman, I think there are problems there with relationships. At best the 4 year old would need to be a great nephew and Mary may not be related at all - a visitor instead of a niece for instance, if she is the correct Mary that is - no proof as yet she is the right woman. If she is Judith Cock's 'niece' it could be either her own niece or through her Cock marriage.
William H Williams could be anyone's child - James', another unknown son's, or Mary juniors' illegitimate child.
There were 48 Williams in Great Torrington alone on the 1841 census.
1841 census HO107 221/22 folio 5 page 5
Castle Street Great Torrington Devon
John Williams 25 Devon Mason
Agnes Williams 25 Devon
James Williams 3 Devon
Rebecca Williams 4mths Devon
aslo Philip Gorwell 58 Cordwainer
1851 census HO107 1894 folio 563
Castle Street Great Torrington Devon
John Williams 38 Gt Torrington, Devon, Head Married Mason's labourer
Agness Williams 40 Newton St Petrock, Devon, Wife Married
Rebecca Williams 10 Gt Torrington, Devon, Daughter
Lucy W Williams 10mths Gt Torrington, Devon, Daughter
plus 1 lodger and 2 visitors
With 51 Williams in 1851 in Great Torrington, I would be very careful in presuming this John was an immediate relation.
Regards
Valda
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ard
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 410
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Thanks Valda,
I understand the error of jumping to conclusions... what I like to do is explore possibilities to see where they lead me, knowing that they are very tentative.
I agree that William H. could be anyone's child (including that of an umwed Williams girl, Mary for example); that was frequent enough. I am also aware that Williams was a very common surname in those parts, not to mention John as a forename!!!
I did find a marriage for a James COCK James of Great Torrington, mason and Judith WESTCOTT sojourner spinster Oct 4, 1802 banns, for what it's worth.
I admit I hadn't intially noticed the age difference (or lack thereof) between Judith Cock and Mary Williams (who remains a possibility)... of course, it not impossible for a niece to be of similar age to her aunt (in very big families) and it is possible that the late James Cocks, if it he that were the uncle, which was what I was going with, was much older than his wife.
Again, I'm just playing with possibilities. Sometimes it's easier to prove an idea wrong (thereby eliminating it) than not to have anything to verify...at least there is something to work with. I also do find that families often stuck together, siblings sometimes marrying siblings of another family - and certainly neighbours, so that the more connections I find, the easier it it to form a picture... although it often reveals itself later.
I will be cautious 
Really, it is Rebecca who is my direct line. I do find that working laterally can really help to complete a puzzle more effectively that sticking to just one line. It also helps to give a better sense of the lives of people. Having names and such is fun but it is a skeleton... finding something of the lives of people adds flesh to the old bones!
ard
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CNL-DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;Wilkey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin; Harding;Williams;Leach;Martin;Hewett;
KNT:Foster;Piper;Wagon; Henry;Burville;Hobbs;Briggs;
ESX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon; Stack;Whelms?
MDX:Gruber;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Walters;Ricketts;Shortland;
LCN:Burton;Blackburn;
YSE:Hoffmann(Birkenfeld,DEU)
SCOT:Dick;Frew;Halliday;Leggat;Stevenson;Williamson;Houston;Lang; Blair
Richmond;Pollock;McLachlan; McDonald;
NIr:Ferguson;Black
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debbi2k
RootsChat Veteran
Offline
Posts: 803
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Dear Ard,
I looked in Great Torrington today and there is no marriage for that couple in 1841.
I guess the marriage took place in one of the numerous parishes that come under the Torrington registration district.
Sorry
Debbi
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Logged
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Emery,Willis,Cawsey,Gibbings,Stevens and Newcombe;Devon
Monk,Griffths,Kingdon ; Gloucs,Oxfordshire and Bristol
Janes;Woolwich,Charlton
Sculpher;Norfolk,Bermondsey
Grubb:Wiltshire
Morgan and Davis;Eglwysilan,Glam
Kingdon,Saunders,Greedy,Tarr;Somerset
Poore;Berkshire
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