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Topic: Where does my line end? (Read 1258 times)
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Adrian Smith
RootsChat Member
Posts: 117
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello all - Happy New Year.
Can anyone tell me where my line ends? I believe my ancestor to be William Hemens, born 1809 in Winscombe. The parish record reveals that his mother was Elisabeth Hemens who had previously been married to [probably still was] and had children with Paul; however, William is listed as a base chile....
D M Year Christ'd sex Father Mother Comments
10 Jul 1803 Elisabeth d Paul Elisabeth
1 Oct 1805 David s Paul Elisabeth
26 Jun 1808 Ann d Paul Elisabeth
5 Nov 1809 William s Elisabeth base chile
So, even though I know who her husband was, I have no idea who was William's father.
My question is this; does this effectively end the Hemens line, or shouldn't William even be included in my tree as his listed surname is not derived from his father?
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Hemmens - Westbury, Wiltshire, Winscombe,Axbridge Somerset.
Smith - Bratton, Westbury,Wiltshire
Sheppard - Wiltshire.
Loader - London, Hertforshire.
Legate - Hertfordshire
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9696
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Legally you can and always could be known by any name you chose to be known as.
Have you checked with Somerset Record Office to see whether they hold for instance a 'filiation order' or more what was more commonly known as a 'bastardy bond' where the parish sought a maintenance order on the father for the upkeep of the child so the cost did not fall of the parish rate payers for his upkeep. Unless of course Paul was prepared to support him, but if this was the same Elizabeth Hemens, the wife of Paul (and not another Elizabeth Hemens, Paul's sister/cousin for instance?) then it rather looks like Paul was 'out of the picture' in someway from the parish entry. Married women with husbands at home didn't have baseborn children (present genetic research seems to indicate that a lot more children than was thought, were not the products of their 'fathers', but of course the married women concerned were not going about telling their husbands this and the children were baptised or their births registered as the legitimate offspring of the married couple). If not and the husband was openly 'a cuckold' you might have expected a further comment in the parish register on the baptism of the child.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9696
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The family might be mentioned if they were paupers, but that doesn't mean there would be any reference to who the child's father was, just the payments the family received.
http://www.mdlp.co.uk/resources/general/poor_law.htm
Did Elizabeth remarry?
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9696
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Adrian
How have you tracked your ancestor back to William Hemens baptised 1809 in Winscombe? What is your direct line from William? The William of the right age in Winscombe on the 1841 census seems on later censuses to give his birthplace as the adjacent parish of Bishop Compton?
How do you know that the Elizabeth who had a base child called William in 1809 in Winscombe was the same woman as Elizabeth the wife of Paul having children in the village earlier and a child later with her husband?
Winscombe baptism 21st June 1813
Lydia Hemens daughter of Paul and Elizabeth Winscombe labourer
There is a Lydia Hemens aged 25 (adult ages over 15 ususally rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census) an Ann Hemens aged 30 and an Elizabeth Hemens aged 70 with three young children in Winscombe on the 1841 census.
Have you checked the Compton Bishop parish registers for Hemens entries?
Regards
Valda
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Adrian Smith
RootsChat Member
Posts: 117
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Adrian
How have you tracked your ancestor back to William Hemens baptised 1809 in Winscombe? What is your direct line from William? The William of the right age in Winscombe on the 1841 census seems on later censuses to give his birthplace as the adjacent parish of Bishop Compton?
Hi Valda,
I trace my line to William via my grandfather Charles William Hemens 9 Jan 1890, Winscombe > George Upshall Hemens 13 Jan 1835, Winscombe > William Hemens Abt 1809, Compton Bishop. I can find no Hemens in the Compton Bishop registers.
How do you know that the Elizabeth who had a base child called William in 1809 in Winscombe was the same woman as Elizabeth the wife of Paul having children in the village earlier and a child later with her husband?
Good question; I don't. At this stage I am investigating possibilities but I can find no other Elisabeth of a the right age in the area. I'll admit that I'm probably getting too fixated on Elisabeth but she has become my 'brick wall'. I probably need to take a step back and get a fresh perspective on this as I'm probably missing something obvious.
Many thanks for your wise words which have brought me down to earth 
Regards,
Adrian.
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Hemmens - Westbury, Wiltshire, Winscombe,Axbridge Somerset.
Smith - Bratton, Westbury,Wiltshire
Sheppard - Wiltshire.
Loader - London, Hertforshire.
Legate - Hertfordshire
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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Adrian, I have no answer to your dillema, just empathy!
My Edmonds line goes back to early 1700's and ends in exactly the same way.
The last confirmed event we have is the marriage of James Edmonds to Sarah Ead in 1713.
After extensive searching, the most likely candidate for this James is a christening in a neighbouring parish. The entry in the parish register is in LAtin (!) and the translation we have managed to get reads as follows:
"James, son of MAry Edmonds and (as claimed by MAry) of Ralph Edmonds, her former husband, who went away on the day of the annuciation of the Virgin Mary in 1676 and who she declared to be dead two years ago, and is now rumoured to come and go furtivley among the other women, invisible to all but his wife.
Putative son of John Tavernor."
My reading of this is that Ralph deserted Mary. She told everyone he was dead. she had a fling with John Tavenor and got pregnant, but rather than admit having an affair she tries to con everyone that hubby has been making secret visits!
What do you think?
But - if John TAvenor is the Dad, it brings my Edmonds line to an end. Or should I follow RAlph to carry on the Edmonds line - that doesnt seem right as James if James was not his son!
I hope in your case, that you find that that there are two Elizabeth Hemes, and so you can continue your line!
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9696
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Adrian
I might have expected more in the parish register then baseborn child if the mother Elizabeth was actually the wife of Paul and openly cuckolding her husband Paul and blantantly committing adultery - a sin in the eyes of the church - she would have broken the 7th commandment so might as her punishment face something like excommunication from the church - punished for a sin in a local church court. You might also expect her to be shunned in the village and life to become very difficult for her there and yet by 1813 Elizabeth the wife of Paul, has another child with husband Paul.
There is no evidence from the parish register that William, who was baptised in 1809, had an adultress for a mother. Therefore she could just as easily have been a single Elizabeth Hemens (in which case 'I can find no other Elisabeth of a the right age' - does this mean you've checked for a woman aged anywhere between 16ish and up to at a pinch 45?). If the child William was in fact born in Bishop Compton or grew up there, his illegitimacy might be the reason he was not baptised there - his mother working as a servant in Winscombe/his father from Winscombe...
Have you checked the poor law records for Bishop Compton?
'I can find no Hemens in the Compton Bishop registers'
Does this include the marriage records for Bishop Compton for an Elizabeth later marrying there after William's baptism or indeed in Winscombe or an adjacent parish?
Where does your William first surface prior to the 1841 census in Winscombe? Where did he marry? Who were the witnesses at his marriage?
Regards
Valda
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Adrian Smith
RootsChat Member
Posts: 117
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello Valda,
Like you I am now becoming convinced that Elisabeth, Williams Mother is not the same Elisabeth that was married to Paul.
You asked about William's marriage; here are the details:
St. James the Great, Winscombe Somerset
otp William HEMENS 26 Apr 1830 UPSHALL Bethia otp
Witnesses
Thomas ALLAN? Harriet HANCOCK John ELLIS
The next reference to William that I have found is the Winscome 1841 census.
William HEMMENS 32
Bethia HEMMENS
Elizabeth HEMMENS
George HEMMENS 6
I can't find William or Bethia in 1851 but in 1861 they are in Winscombe. This is where we find his birth place recorded as Compton.
I'm not sure where this leaves me 
Regards,
Adrian.
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Hemmens - Westbury, Wiltshire, Winscombe,Axbridge Somerset.
Smith - Bratton, Westbury,Wiltshire
Sheppard - Wiltshire.
Loader - London, Hertforshire.
Legate - Hertfordshire
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glenclare
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 89
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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HI,
I think I have found William and family in 1851.
The family is William, Birthia, and son George age 16. They are living in Banwell, Somerset and are farmers.
Class: HO107; Piece: 1936; Folio: 662; Page: 30;
Hope this might be of help,
Glen
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« Last Edit: Monday 23 July 07 16:04 UTC (UK) by copyright_editor »
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9696
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Have you checked the Bishop Compton registers for any mention of Hemens before and after William's DOB looking for the possibility of William's mother's marriage (and also in Winscombe)?
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9696
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The time span is a bit limited for Compton Bishop parish registers on the site you mention.
Compton Bishop Christenings 1716-1767
Compton Bishop Marriages 1754-1812
if he and his mother returned to Bishop Compton and she later remarried there, or if she was born there.
There is a potential baptism in Winscombe for a 'Lizzie Hemens'
2 Jan 1776 Lissy? d Sarah MASTERS by William HEMENS
William and Sarah do seem to be a consistent pairing
13 Sep 1764 John s Sarah MASTERS a base child
burial 22 Sep 1764 John MASTERS son of Sarah MASTERS
15 Sep 1765 Thomas s Sarah MASTERS a base child
25 Oct 1766 Paul s Sarah MASTERS base born
16 Apr 1769 Hester d Sarah MASTERS
18 Nov 1773 Enoch s Sarah MASTERS
9 Mar 1778 David s Sarah MASTERS by William HEMENS
22 Aug 1779 Matthew s Sarah MASTERS by William HEMENS
burial 28 Oct 1780 Matthew MASTERS son of Sarah MASTERS a base child
15 Mar 1783 Joseph s Sarah MASTERS son of William HEMENS
Sarah had a son called Paul - have you found Paul Hemens baptism - the one who married Elizabeth and was having children in the early C19th in Winscombe and then disappeared?
Regards
Valda
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Pages: [1] 2
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Now I'm really stuck. There are overseers' of the poor accounts for Winscombe covering the relevant period; is it likely that there would be a reference to Elisabeth or William?
