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Author Topic: Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed  (Read 913 times)
2deebees
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Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« on: Sunday 29 February 04 20:17 UTC (UK) »
 :(Please can anyone help with advice about a Welsh placename shown as Phentinthrow on the transcription of the 1901 census, and it also looks like that on the image.  The name is Annie Dougall, late Townson, formerly Jones.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: Tuesday 02 March 04 17:10 UTC (UK) by trystan » Logged
trystan
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Re:Welsh placename
« Reply #1 on: Monday 01 March 04 10:39 UTC (UK) »
P H E N T I N T H R O W

Never heard of such a place. What's worth rememebring here is that there is quite a lot of room for error.

  • Perhaps dear Annie Towson (nee Jones) did not pronounce it correctly
  • Perhaps the person taking the census at their doorestep just interepreted what she said and  just wrote it down the way it sounded.
    (I'm assuning now that the census was taken in a place outside of Wales? Where was it taken?)
  • Perhaps the transcription is wrong.

A good start would be if you could attach a copy of the image - perhaps just showing the place name so we can look at it.

The other thing I've been playing around with (and I know Kazza has been doing the same) is trying to "make" the place name a Welsh one. (I'm a Welsh speaker by the way!)

P H E N T I N T H R O W

First of all, there's a thing in the Welsh language called "mutation" which is where the first letter (or two letters) of a word can change depending on the word that came before it.
If for example I said in welsh I came "from Penrhyn" I would say "o Phenrhyn"
So, your place name could start with "PEN" rather that "PHEN". "Pen" is also a common start to place names and means the "top of" or "head of"

The other thing is pronounciation. The letters "PH" are pronounced the same as the letter "F" in "FROM" so your place name could start with "FEN" or "FFEN"

The end letters "THROW" isn't the kind of word structure you would see in Welsh becasue the "W" in that context doesn't seem to sound right at all.  So your place name could well end, instead of the letters "THROW" with the letters "DDO" "THO" "THRO" or "THRAU" (my favorite is "THRO")

Lastly, it's possible that the "Place Name" is actually the name of a farm where she was born.

Obviously if we are a letter out with the transcript then that will make a LOT of difference - the Welsh alphabet has double letters that count as one letter... So please post the image of the place name fro us to have a look.
« Last Edit: Monday 01 March 04 11:11 UTC (UK) by trystan » Logged
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2deebees
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Re:Welsh placename
« Reply #2 on: Monday 01 March 04 22:44 UTC (UK) »
Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
I have attached a copy of the image, but I am not sure what the quality will be like, I had to reduce the size.
The census was taken in Manchester, and we think Annie was born about 1838. The only other Welsh-related information we have is, that, according to her marriage certificate, her father was Richard Jones, and was a farmer.  It is the second line down on the form.

Again, many thanks.

2deebees.

* 1901_census_Annie_Dougall_clipped.jpg (33.96 KB, 785x95 - viewed 101 times.)
« Last Edit: Tuesday 02 March 04 13:20 UTC (UK) by 2deebees » Logged
trystan
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Reqd
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 02 March 04 16:56 UTC (UK) »
It does look a lot less than "PHENTINTHROW" now.

Is it possible for you to attach as large a cropped image as you can of just around the place name for us please?

(I've attached something similar, but it needs to be done off the "high res" image for it to work properly)

*it's the second line we are looking at

* Annie_Dougall_bach2.gif (28.46 KB, 500x225 - viewed 98 times.)
« Last Edit: Tuesday 02 March 04 17:14 UTC (UK) by trystan » Logged
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trystan
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 02 March 04 17:59 UTC (UK) »
This is really tricky isn't it!!!!


Moderator Note - we deleted a message just pror to this one becasue the image was very wide, and clearer images are now attatched to this topic

* Annie_Dougall_bach3.png (49.35 KB, 402x86 - viewed 101 times.)
« Last Edit: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:30 UTC (UK) by trystan » Logged
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Doug-in-Canada
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 02 March 04 21:09 UTC (UK) »
My interpretation is that it is closer to Phentmerthion. Or Phentmethion.
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Kazza
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 02 March 04 23:24 UTC (UK) »
My two-penneth:

P H E R C H T M E R T H I O N

Which is worse than we started with.  However,  looking at the other entries we would be expecting a place-name,  rather than a house or farm name.

The only bit I am fairly sure of is the E R C T ,  I really don't think that is a N,  but a R C .

Kazza.
« Last Edit: Tuesday 02 March 04 23:36 UTC (UK) by Kazza » Logged


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Doug-in-Canada
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 14:48 UTC (UK) »
Could it be a misspelled Pentref or Phentref Merthion? Is there such a place in Wales. Google comes up blank on it.
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SS from The Rhondda
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 16:32 UTC (UK) »
Some of the marks appear to be added later, and some are from the lines above, and below.

My initial interpretation is:

'Caermarthen'

seems to be written by an English enumerator who has difficulty grasping the Welsh town name spellings and pronunctiations.
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trystan
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:06 UTC (UK) »
If anybody would like to see the whole page for
that particualr census to compare the handwriting,
then -click here- to see it (you need acrobat reader to view it).

I've also attached another image of the writing again - perhaps this might be a little clearer.

* annieimage.jpg (93.22 KB, 582x485 - viewed 96 times.)
« Last Edit: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:19 UTC (UK) by trystan » Logged
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Chris in 1066Land
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:18 UTC (UK) »
Trystan

I clicked on 'click here' and got a load of gobble-de-gook

Chris in 1066Land


Thank you sir, for your very quick attention and correction of Link.
It now works perfectly, although a bit slow - must make a mental note to upgrade to BroadBand.

Thankyou
« Last Edit: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:30 UTC (UK) by Chris in 1066Land » Logged
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:20 UTC (UK) »
Sorry about that - my mistake, Try it again Chris - it should work now!  Embarrassed
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2deebees
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 21:46 UTC (UK) »
Thank you for all the ideas.

We have found Ann Townson on the 1881 census on FamilySearch, at 14 Quay St Manchester, an address we also have on her daughter's birth certificate in 1884, and her birth place is shown as Denbigh, Wales.  We tried to find a birth/christening for her, as Ann Jones, father Richard Jones, in 1840 =/- 5yrs, for Denbigh, Wales, and found 2 options, both in 1835, a bit early from her given age on later census and certificates.  However, one place was Llandyrnog, (for an Ann without an 'e'), and the other was Llansilin, Denbigh, (Anne).

Not sure if all this helps or not, but any advice still welcomed.  Thanks again

2deebees
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Doug-in-Canada
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Re:Welsh placename - Handwriting Analysis Needed
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 03 March 04 23:54 UTC (UK) »
There is a hamlet near Denbigh called Tremeirchion. It's down the road from Llandyrnog. Is it possible that this was how the census-taker interpretted it?
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