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Topic: Elder family, Old Raploch farm (Read 1712 times)
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greenvalley
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 264
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I'm researching the ELDER family who worked on Old Raploch Farm near Stirling. Thomas ELDER, born in Balquhidder in 1779, died there in 1863. He was staying with his son Peter ELDER, who was born at Port of Menteith in 1810 and died at Raploch farm bewteen 1881 and 1891.
Peter's death does not appear on the Scotlands people site.
other members of the same family are Thomas Elder, born in Menteith in 1801, grocer in Kilsyth. John Elder, Menteith 1812, colliery grieve in Polmont in Stirling.
Anyone with more info on these members of this particular ELDER family, please let me know. Especially if you know who the parents of Thomas Elder are - the mother is Alexandrina WAKINSHAW, but was he illegitemate?
Charlotte
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ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9091
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Hi Charlotte
There is a christening entry on IGI for Thomas Snr, an actual extract from the OPRs:
THOMAS ELDER Christening: 19 DEC 1779 Balquhidder, Perth, Scotland
Parents: Father: THOMAS ELDER Mother: ALEXANDRINA WALKINSHAW
Whether they were married or not, I can't tell. I cannot see any other children showing for them or a marriage to confirm either way 
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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greenvalley
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 264
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Thanks Monica,
I had a look at the baptismal record, but the entry for Thomas looks different from the others.
There's also the issue that a Alexandrina Wakinshaw gets married in Port of Mentieth to John Thomson in 1791, where is where young Thomas shows up and marries himself 10 years later.
I do have his death entry, but from that it appears that he was married to jean McWhannell and that his father too was married to a Jean McWhannell. That last name is a nightmare as the name of the mother appears as McDonald on all the birth entires, but is spelled as: McWhannel, McDuanel and McWhanney.
Makes you wonder about the accent.
Anyway, thanks for that and if you ever come across a stray Elder from Raploch please let me know.
Charlotte
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ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9091
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Hi Charlotte
Thomas's DC in 1863 is hard to read isn't it! More importantly, I wonder if son-in-law Michael may have misreported details regarding the surname of both Thomas's wife Jane and his mother's surname (not uncommon). Both as you say look the same.
Thomas's details on IGI (marriage and children's births) clearly show Jane as MacDonald. Have you looked at some of the children's DCs, what do they show for mother's maiden name? From the census info for Thomas, it looks like Jane wife had died by the 1841 census. If she had been dead for some time, it may explain the vagueness about her surname.
You have an actual extract for Thomas's birth with father as Thomas and mother as Alexandrina. I agree the birth could have been illegitimate and would explain Alexandrina's marriage some 10 or so years later (or she could have been widowed early and remarrying).
I wish I could see something more definitive for you but as it is, I think I am just treading the same steps as you....
Which is you line, is it Peter? How has he been transcribed on his DC index is hard to say, he certainly not jumping out 
Thomas son had an inventory following his death in 1889:
Elder Thomas 07/10/1889 merchant in Kilsyth, d. 15/07/1889 at Kilsyth, testate, spouse is Helen Mason or Elder Inventory; Extract Registered Trust Disposition and Settlement; Codicils Stirling Sheriff Court SC67/36/90
I'll keep an eye out and see if anything new jumps out  I assume you have the early census info for them, if not let me know.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9091
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Charlotte
Just had a thought, don't know how practical it may be, depending on your location. Regarding Thomas's birth, as per the OPR entry for 1779 in Balquhidder, Perth. You might want to check the Kirk Session Minutes for Balquhidder to see whether, if the birth of Thomas was illegitimate, there may be some record of it (more likely the sin by his parents  ) in the Kirk Session Minutes. See this link:
www.stirling.gov.uk/church_records
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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greenvalley
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 264
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Hi Monica
thanks for all that.
Thomas Elder was my great great great grandfather, through his son James, born in Menteith in 1818. I have most of the information from then to the present day of most of the family, but I can't get back any further. Not with the Elders or the McDonalds.
Intriguingly a David Elder died at Raploch Farm in 1862: fishery officer at Island of Westray, Orkney; then at Helmsdale, and lately resided at Raploch, spouse of Janet Robertson or Elder.Davids family later emigrated to new Zealand or there abouts. My theory is that he must have been related to the "Raploch Elders", why would he be visiting them otherwise? He and his family were planning to emigrate at te time and I think he went to say farewell.
Question then is: who is the connection? I can't find further details for David either. All very unsatisfactory.
Charlotte
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ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9091
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Hi Charlotte
David Elder's place of birth from his 1851 census entry in Sutherland with his family is showing as Soulithyon, West Indies  , by 1861 it's changed to the not so exotic West Lothian, Linlithgow!
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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NancyElder
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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My ARGYLL research page for ELDER has:
a THOMAS ELDER b. in BALQUHIDDER:
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~nancyelder/ed/Argyll.htm
LDS PERTHSHIRE christenings printout from OLD PARISH REGISTERS
Thomas ELDER
christening
19 Dec 1779
Balquhidder
Parents:
Thomas ELDER
and
Alexandrina Walkinshaw
Ancestry.com
***
1851 ARGYLL Census
Name: Thomas Elder
Age: 74
Estimated birth year: abt 1777
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Balquhidder, Perthshire
Parish Number: 540
Civil parish: Kilchoman
County: Argyll
Address: Gruinard Mill Croft
Occupation: Farmer Of 8 Acres
ED: 5
Page: 1 .
Household schedule number: 1
Line: 1
Roll: CSSCT1851_114
Household Members:
Name Age
Jane Carmichael 4
Martha Carmichael 35
Thomas Elder 74
Christina McEachern 15
**
also found ELDER in CAMPBELTOWN, ARGYLL
in
"CAMPBELTOWN LIFE" by Donald Keith
http://www.dkeith.clara.co.uk/campbeltownlife/part9.htm
Alec ELDER's bike shop (about 1945, during WWII):
....
One warm summer's day I decided to hire a bike and proceeded to
Elder's shop. Within the owner was hunched over a bike, re-spoking a
wheel. As I entered he looked up sharply.
"Whit dae ye want wee boy?" he asked, spitting a stream of tobacco
juice on the floor.
"Can I hire a bike for an hour."
Elders eyes gleamed. "Whurs yer shullin?" he asked, "av got tae be
carefu fur rascals can slip awa wie a bike an no pey me"....
--Nancy Elder Petersen
(*)
Host, ELDER DNA project
of Houston, Texas
DNA results:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ELDER
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 31 March 09 22:19 UTC (UK) by aghadowey »
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greenvalley
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 264
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Hi NancyElder,
thanks for that information. I knew that Thomas was in Kilchoman in 1851, the question is why? He's in his 70s and his married daughter Martha Carmichael and her daughter are staying with him, but her husband isn't. larer, in 1861 they are all living near Stirling again.
I have been unable to establish a family link between Thomas ELDER and the other Argyll Elders.
He's from Perthshire, but lives in this relatively small area between Port of Menteith and Stirling for most of his life.
The stay in Islay is puzzling to say the least. Do you have any other information that may tie him to the Elders in Campbeltown? Although both Kilchoman and Campbeltown are in Argyll, they are not close by and separated by water.
Greenvalley
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ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire
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NancyElder
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry, no more connections found,
but did see a current ELDER name--I wonder if Dr. Malcolm R. ELDER
would help:
His Campbeltown address:
at
http://www.totaltravel.co.uk/travel/scotland/strathclyde/kintyre/listing/shopchemists/10789204
List of GP's - Dr. MALCOM R ELDER
Address
Carradale
Argyll
Campbeltown Argyll PA28 6QG
UK
Phone number:
01583 431376
***
SEARCHING ELDER and TARBERT town
found:
http://www.lochgilphead.org/maguides/divisionnews.html
Girlguiding Argyll
Mid Argyll Division
Tarbert District Changes
Mary ELDER has taken over from Margaret Soudan
as District Commissioner for Tarbert District.
She will also be job sharing the Division Commissioner function with Rowena Ranger.
See e-mail contacts for Mary ELDER.
*****
and
Dr. ELDER of Carradale, Campbeltown -2006
NHS Highland
Argyll & Bute CHP Management Team Meeting
22 August 2006
Lorn & Islands District General Hospital, Oban
"9.1.2 GP Out of Hours " (OOH) (maybe emergency hours?)
..."John also advised that currently there is no provision for a GP OOHs in
the Carradale and Skipness area. The GPs in Campbeltown currently do
not wish to take on the provision of cover for this area, a meeting has
been arranges with the Campbeltown GPs for September. Meantime Dr
Elder has agreed to continue to provide OOH cover. "
Also:
Carolyn Shearer, of Franklin County Pennsylvania sent me a note about
our ELDER research in Pennsylvania- -as possible connection in ARGYLL.
She wrote:
>Was doing some data entry on the Sharps of Cumberland Co, PA.
All the old bios agree that Thomas Sharp 'born Ireland' married Margaret Elder. I was doing some searching on the LDS site, to see what anyone said about their marriage date.
Could not find it, but did get a hit on the baptisms of the first 5 children.
They were all baptized in Campbelltown, Argyll, Scotland.
Maybe they were not Scotch Irish after all, but Scots straight from Scotland. ..
The Campbelltown baptisms read like a census of early Cumberland and Franklin Co's: Elders, Stewarts, Witherspoon, Alexanders, Armour, Barr etc.
Nancy Elder Petersen
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder
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NancyElder
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for the added info! Could the missing location be
"Comrie Parish Church?" I love the Scotland maps!
Google.com for "Glenbeich" - found map including Balquhidder
in Comrie Parish - PERTHSHIRE
at
http://www.stilwell.co.uk/show_town.asp?Q=bb%7CL4133222
and
COMRIE PARISH CHURCH
at
http://www.perthpresbytery.org.uk/churches/churches.php?id=12
"Comrie Parish Church has its origins in mediaeval times.
The present congregation occupies what was the second Free Church building to be erected in Comrie, dating from 1881.
The site, on the bank of the River Earn, is a particularly attractive one. The parish stretches half way to Crieff, to the East, and half way to St. Fillans, to the West. The congregation enjoys good relationships with the smaller congregations of the Scottish Episcopal Church and Roman Catholic Church in the village."
Burrell Street
Comrie Perthshire PH6 2JP
***
--Nancy Elder Petersen
Vancouver, Washington State, USA
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder
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greenvalley
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 264
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Thanks Nancy,
No, the missing location isn't Comrie Parish church - in those days Balquhidder and Comrie were 2 distinctive parishes.
I found his on the Scottish national Archives
[/b]tMemorandum of a tack of lands of easter and wester Glenbeichs by James Goodlatt Campbell of Auchlyne to "Thomas and Thomas Elder - dated 15 April 1777[b]
This is about the time that Thomas ELDER was born, and I assume that one of the Thomases mentioned is the father. Problem is, I can't find them anywhere. 
It looks like the were never born....
I also found the marriage of a William ELDER in Balquhidder in 1797. He's from Balquhidder and his bride Margaret McDONALD is from Comrie, but no entry of a birth for William Elder either.
William and Margaret later have a child, Thomas Elder, born 22/4/1798 and the registration says that the couple in form Glenbeich. I therefore don't doubt that these Elders are related to my illegitimate Thomas, but as I said, they keep disappearing.
It seems that every time I discover another Elder the trail immediately goes cold again. Very annoying indeed.
Greenvalley
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ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire
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Pages: [1] 2
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? she fathers upon Thomas Elder in Glenbeich[b]