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Author Topic: Elder family, Old Raploch farm  (Read 15000 times)

Offline greenvalley

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Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« on: Sunday 18 February 07 18:28 GMT (UK) »
I'm researching the ELDER family who worked on Old Raploch Farm near Stirling. Thomas ELDER, born in Balquhidder in 1779, died there in 1863. He was staying with his son Peter ELDER, who was born at Port of Menteith in 1810 and died at Raploch farm bewteen 1881 and 1891.

Peter's death does not appear on the Scotlands people site.

other members of the same family are Thomas Elder, born in Menteith in 1801, grocer in Kilsyth. John Elder, Menteith 1812, colliery grieve in Polmont in Stirling.

Anyone with more info on these members of this particular ELDER family, please let me know.  Especially if you know who the parents of Thomas Elder are - the mother is Alexandrina WAKINSHAW, but was he illegitemate?

Charlotte


ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Online MonicaL

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #1 on: Monday 19 February 07 13:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi Charlotte

There is a christening entry on IGI for Thomas Snr, an actual extract from the OPRs:

THOMAS ELDER  Christening:  19 DEC 1779  Balquhidder, Perth, Scotland
Parents: Father: THOMAS ELDER    Mother: ALEXANDRINA WALKINSHAW

Whether they were married or not, I can't tell. I cannot see any other children showing for them or a marriage to confirm either way :-\

Regards.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline greenvalley

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #2 on: Monday 19 February 07 14:54 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Monica,

I had a look at the baptismal record, but the entry for Thomas looks different from the others.

There's also the issue that a Alexandrina Wakinshaw gets married in Port of Mentieth to John Thomson in 1791, where is where young Thomas shows up and marries himself 10 years later.

I do have his death entry, but from that it appears that he was married to jean McWhannell and that his father too was married to a Jean McWhannell. That last name is a nightmare as the name of the mother appears as McDonald on all the birth entires, but is spelled as: McWhannel, McDuanel and McWhanney.

Makes you wonder  about the accent.

Anyway, thanks for that and if you ever come across a stray Elder from Raploch please let me know.

Charlotte
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Online MonicaL

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #3 on: Monday 19 February 07 18:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi Charlotte

Thomas's DC in 1863 is hard to read isn't it! More importantly, I wonder if son-in-law Michael may have misreported details regarding the surname of both Thomas's wife Jane and his mother's surname (not uncommon). Both as you say look the same.

Thomas's details on IGI (marriage and children's births) clearly show Jane as MacDonald. Have you looked at some of the children's DCs, what do they show for mother's maiden name? From the census info for Thomas, it looks like Jane wife had died by the 1841 census. If she had been dead for some time, it may explain the vagueness about her surname.

You have an actual extract for Thomas's birth with father as Thomas and mother as Alexandrina. I agree the birth could have been illegitimate and would explain Alexandrina's marriage some 10 or so years later (or she could have been widowed early and remarrying).

I wish I could see something more definitive for you but as it is, I think I am just treading the same steps as you....

Which is you line, is it Peter? How has he been transcribed on his DC index is hard to say, he certainly not jumping out  :'(

Thomas son had an inventory following his death in 1889:

Elder   Thomas   07/10/1889   merchant in Kilsyth, d. 15/07/1889 at Kilsyth, testate, spouse is Helen Mason or Elder   Inventory; Extract Registered Trust Disposition and Settlement; Codicils   Stirling Sheriff Court   SC67/36/90

I'll keep an eye out and see if anything new jumps out  :)  I assume you have the early census info for them, if not let me know.

Regards.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online MonicaL

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #4 on: Monday 19 February 07 22:11 GMT (UK) »
Charlotte

Just had a thought, don't know how practical it may be, depending on your location. Regarding Thomas's birth, as per the OPR entry for 1779 in Balquhidder, Perth. You might want to check the Kirk Session Minutes for Balquhidder to see whether, if the birth of Thomas was illegitimate, there may be some record of it (more likely the sin by his parents ::)) in the Kirk Session Minutes. See this link:

www.stirling.gov.uk/church_records

Regards.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline greenvalley

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 20 February 07 14:43 GMT (UK) »
Hi Monica

thanks for all that.

Thomas Elder was my great great great grandfather, through his son James, born in Menteith in 1818. I have most of the information from then to the present day of most of the family, but I can't get back any further. Not with the Elders or the McDonalds.

Intriguingly a David Elder died at Raploch Farm in 1862: fishery officer at Island of Westray, Orkney; then at Helmsdale, and lately resided at Raploch, spouse of Janet Robertson or Elder.Davids family later emigrated to new Zealand or there abouts. My theory is that he must have been related to the "Raploch Elders", why would he be visiting them otherwise? He and his family were planning to emigrate at te time and I think he went to say farewell.

Question then is: who is the connection? I can't find further details for David either. All very unsatisfactory.

Charlotte
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Online MonicaL

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 20 February 07 21:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi Charlotte

David Elder's place of birth from his 1851 census entry in Sutherland with his family is showing as Soulithyon, West Indies  8), by 1861 it's changed to the not so exotic West Lothian, Linlithgow!

Regards.

Monica  :)
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline greenvalley

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 21 February 07 17:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi Monica,

I've found David's birth, he was born 26/11/1794  in Linlithgow as the son of David Elder and Hannah Jamieson. I've checked their other offspring but there's no Thomas amongst them.

So I just don't know where to go to find the relationship between the two. Any suggestions?

ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline greenvalley

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Re: Elder family, Old Raploch farm
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 21 February 07 18:39 GMT (UK) »
Hi Monica,

I revisited the Scotlandspeople site again and found a marriage for Thomas Elder from "Port" to Jean McIlchonnel in Comrie, in 1801. The date is 2 days of the registration in Port of Mentieth.

Looking at the writing it looks like McWhannel and I think I've gotten back a little further  ;D

Jean is the daughter of Pet McIlchonnel and his wife Chirstan, "begot in furnication" and the birth was registered on 20th December 1775, which is the day Pet and Christan got married.

And there's was me thinking that only my Dutch rellies did these things....

Thanks for making me rethink things.

Charlotte
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire