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Topic: CARVER Ramblings (Read 8410 times)
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Nick Carver
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Tom
I descend from James Carver of Hardley (1788-1851), son of Thomas. James had four sons and three of them, John, William and Daniel moved up to Hull. It would seem John went first and started in Leeds before getting to Hull in the 1840s (typical Industrial Revolution migration) where his brothers followed him. John is my gg grandfather. If you can work out a relationship on that basis, good luck to you. PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send you a file with some details. I still live in E Anglia - in Cambs, but very close to the Suffolk/Norfolk border
Nick
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E Yorks - Carver, Steels, Cross, Maltby, Whiting, Moor, Laybourn
W Yorks - Wilkinson, Kershaw, Rawnsley, Shaw
Norfolk - Carver, Dowson
Cheshire - Berry, Cooper
Lincs - Berry
London/Ireland/Scotland/Lincs - Sullivan
Northumberland/Durham - Nicholson, Cuthbert, Turner, Robertson
Berks - May
Beds - Brownell
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Tommy C
RootsChat Extra
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Nick
Thanks, I can’t see any obvious link.
I believe my ggg grandfather was Jonathan Carver (b.1831 Hardley, Norfolk and married to Esther) and I suspect his brother was William Carver (b.1826 Mundham, Norfolk.) although I can’t find them together on any census so more work is needed. However, Jonathan’s father was Jonathan b.1801 and his father was Thomas b.1753 in Langley, Norfolk which is next to Hardley. I wonder if your James Carver and my Jonathan were brothers…pure speculation, no evidence yet so I’ll send you that PM.
Thanks again.
Tom
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Nick Carver
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Check out the link I gave you. I suspect your Jonathan's father (also Jonathan) was born 1798, not 1801 and he was the brother of my James Carver. I am in touch with several people from that branch of the family
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E Yorks - Carver, Steels, Cross, Maltby, Whiting, Moor, Laybourn
W Yorks - Wilkinson, Kershaw, Rawnsley, Shaw
Norfolk - Carver, Dowson
Cheshire - Berry, Cooper
Lincs - Berry
London/Ireland/Scotland/Lincs - Sullivan
Northumberland/Durham - Nicholson, Cuthbert, Turner, Robertson
Berks - May
Beds - Brownell
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Easby Carver
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Posts: 36
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Jan,
Can I just check something with you please.
The reference of the wheelwrighting apprenticeships to Hitchin St. Mary - where it refers to Carver Sam Thos. Could this be referring to separate individuals? I.e Not Samuel Thomas Carver but a Samuel & Thomas Carver?
The reference to apprenticeship was plural...just a thought.
Neil.
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janan
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Hi Neil
Now that is something I never thought of  Re-reading the other entries unless there was anyone called Thos Eliz, Geo Mary and suchlike then yes Saml Thos may well be two people! So what happened to Thomas - brother presumably of Samuel?
Jan 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Easby Carver
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Hmmmm.
The Thomas who married Susan Turner would seem to be ruled out as he married her in 1746 in Lower Gravenhurst and she died in 1760 in Southill. The apprenticeship was in 1754, between these dates.
Neil.
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Easby Carver
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Hi Jan et al,
Something else has occurred to me for the first time (I must stop doing this!). It's about the will of William Carver the yeoman labourer who died in Dunton in 1759.
If I understand this correctly, it references two sons John and Peter and the current consensus is that this William Carver is the father of 'Everton John'. A problem here is we do not have this Peter identified but we do know of a John (Everton John). I suggest that William Carver is referring to his grandchildren in the will and not his sons.
I say this because William Carver died in early August 1759 in Dunton. Just three weeks earlier Peter Carver, aged 3, the son of Everton John, dies in Dunton. we have no other known Peter Carver alive at this point. ‘Merrington’ John would have been approximately one year old at his grandfather’s death – assuming his baptism in 1758 was close to his birth.
All the male elder siblings of Peter and John in the summer of 1759 are dead (William died in 1750). Would anything be left to the female siblings? (Elizabeth, Mary and Ann). I suggest not which would explain why they do not appear in William’s will.
William almost certainly would not have had a chance to alter his will in the three weeks between Peter’s death and his own, especially if succumbed to the same illness as Peter. With a contagious disease raging in the village, who would want to see anybody about a new will who was from this village? In this way we can fully account for the ‘missing’ Peter.
On the above basis the will makes absolute sense if William left things to his grandchildren and not his son John. It would all fit. Now, I haven’t seen the will and the probate record. There is so much flying about that I may have missed this suggestion elsewhere – apologies if I have. Do we know when the will was written?
Your witness m’lud...
Neil.
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janan
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Hi Neil
Sorry to put paid to your theory
William of Dunton's will of which I have a copy was written 17 Sep 1748, (there is another one proved 1760 which I looked at but it appeared the same as the 1748 one, now wonder if there were alterations I didn't notice) - in it he makes bequests to
'wife Ann Carver'
'eldest son John Carver'
'youngest son Peter Carver'
'daughters Mary and Sarah Carver'
I can see baptisms for all these children plus William and another Sarah (b1826 bur1827). Can't see baptisms for the Elizabeth and Ann you mention - do you have them? There is no mention of William in the will and since John is said to be eldest son then William should have died before 1748 - a bit puzzling as I can't see another Beds burial for him other than 1750 one, maybe he moved out of county. If so who is the William buried Dunton 21 Feb 1750? And what happened to youngest son Peter?
A Peter Carver married Eliz Mayze in Tempsford 1747 and they had 3 daughters , Elizabeth Mary and Ann - no other Carver/Calver activity in Tempsford so think this is most likely the youngest son of William
I will have a further dig
Jan
This thread now contains a mass of information and has become rather unwieldy and confusing - when I have time to go through it I will try to extract info for a summary. I might later lock this thread and start another.
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« Last Edit: Sunday 11 May 08 17:46 BST (UK) by janan »
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Easby Carver
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for this. I can see the Tempsford baptisms now.
I have a baptism for an Elizabeth at Dunton for 30th March 1746 to John and Mary.
I have a baptism for an Ann at Dunton for 11th February 1753 to John and Mary.
I have a baptism for William at Dunton 7th May 1749 to John and Mary. I have presumed this William died 21st February, 1750.
Neil.
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janan
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Hi
Thanks for clarifying that - I was thinking Ann and Elizabeth were daughter's of William and Ann so got confused.
Yes agree the 1750 death is likely to be son of John and Mary - needs checking on the transcripts sometime, might say 'son of'. So that leaves William baptised May 130th 1714 son of William and Ann who should have died before 1748.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Easby Carver
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Posts: 36
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Hi all,
I have located Parish Church apprenticeship records for the sons of Samuel Carver who was himself apprenticed via the Baptist Church to Hitchin as a wheelwright in 1744 and was subsequently twice married in Hitchin in 1754 (St. Ippollitts) and 1759 (St. Mary).
These are the details:
29th December 1773: Thomas Carver of Hitchin apprenticed to James Alldred, Silk Weaver of Bethnal Green, Middx. Father: Samuel Carver.
25th March 1778: John Carver of Hitchin apprenticed to William Eastwick, Weaver of Hitchin. Father: Samuel Carver.
As I understand parish apprenticeships, these were for children who were effectively paupers of the parish and it was an attempt to give them a start in life via a trade. Exactly where this lies between virtual slavery or a form of technical college I leave for others to cogitate over. Thomas would have been 13 years old and John 16. The implication from this is that things were not going well for Samuel’s family.
I had a quick check and Bethnal Green seems to have been the English centre of silk weaving. It could also help explain why we have no sign of Carvers in Hertfordshire later on and off the top of my head perhaps explain the development of Carvers in London(?) For those unfamiliar with Bethnal Green, it is an inner-city east London district now and I suspect even in the 1770s was part of London then.
Source of above information was the Hertfordshire County Records Office in Hertford where the apprenticeship records are on microfilm. I have photocopies of them. It’s effectively a standard contract with just the details of the Master and Apprentice filled in. It includes:
“At Cards, Dice, Tables, or any other unlawful Games, he shall not play”, “his lawful Secrets keep, his lawful Commands every where gladly do”, etc.
Both of the Masters were able to sign their name. No sign of acquiescence from Samuel on the document which does not surprise me as it seems very much a deal between the Church parish and the Masters.
Neil.
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Chris Carver
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi everybody,
First let me apologise for my long absemce, but everything has happened at once t the family in different parts of th ecountry, so been very busy, but I will get back on the case.
Nick, I will get back to you about DNA tests.
However, your posts about apprenticeships goes a long way to proving my link as my Thomas Carver, b c1760, was a weaver in Bethnal Green. He also had a brother John about whom I know very little apart from he died in London. I just need to find a half brother Samuel from Samuel senior's first marriage to make it all fit very well.
Chris
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London - Carver Philbedge
Sheffield - Carver Lindley Lockey Denton Naylor Barnes Wright Fawkes Bradshaw White Allen
Durham - Lockey
Wales - Philbedge
Beds - Carver
South Africa - van der Sandt, Heydenrych
Somerset - House Hembery Marshall Parsons Bell Dare Neath Gray
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janan
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Posts: 4972
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Hi
Those apprenticeship records are interesting Neil and certainly looking good for your family Chris - perhaps non-conformist baptism for your missing Samuel?
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Easby Carver
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Posts: 36
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I took some notes from a book by the Bedfordshire Historical Records Society (vol. 51) called “Some Early Non-Conformist Church Books” edited by H.G.Tibbutt (1972).
There was a reference to Thomas Carver in the book but only repeating what has already been referred to earlier in his thread.
There was a potted history of the Southill Independence Church. It was formed via ‘a peaceable separation’ in 1693 from the Bedford Independent Church. The Bedford Independent Church itself had split from the Rothwell Independent Church previously. The Bedford section was its southern section and the northern section in the split was based in Kimbolton.
The book goes on to describe an “interesting feature” of the Southill Independent Church. Of its early members many came from Hertfordshire. Given we know in 1744 Samuel Carver went from Southill to Hitchin in Hertfordshire via a Baptist Church apprenticeship, this would tie in neatly with the link described above.
Neil.
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