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Topic: "The Fountain" at 17, The Minories - when did it disappear? (Read 344 times)
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Keith Sherwood
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Hi, Everyone,
I was wondering whether there are any experts out there on long-gone London Pubs. "The Fountain" always appeared next to 16, The Minories in the London Directories in the early part of the 19thC, so presumably was at number 17. There seems to be no mention of it when I Google.
Does anybody know anything about the history of the pub, or when it might have disappeared as a drinking place.
I'm always surprised (maybe I shouldn't be!) by how often my ancestors in London lived very next door to a pub...
Very best wishes,
keith
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PrueM
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Hi Keith 
According to this document I downloaded:
http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk/DRINKH-L.pdf
someone with the name LEWIS was publican at The Fountain, Minories, in 1877. Not sure if the same Fountain, though...
Cheers
Prue
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) – BIGG (Kent) – BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) – BRISBANE (Fife) – DANKS (STS) – DOBSON (BRK) – FRANCIS (ESS) – GOODE (HAM) – HAYNES (Cork) – INGRAM (MDX, SOM) – LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) – MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) – MORRISH (LND) – NANCARROW (CON) – OGILVIE (Moray, LND) – STRATHDEE (Banff) – SWAN (Fife) – WOOD (LND)
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meles
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The Minories is now a series of very modern office blocks, developed, I would guess, in the late 60's early 70's: not a shred of history left.
meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk Harrison: London; Pollock Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk Rogers: London; Bartlett: London Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Keith Sherwood
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Thanks very much for those helpful responses, Prue, Annie and Meles,
There's certainly very little - if anything - left in this end of The Minories today that pre-dates the late 19thC. I think something very drastic happened here after the 1881 Census as businesses, homes and watering holes all seemed to suddenly disappear. I think I'll have to get back to The Guildhall Library next month to try and discover what exactly transpired...
keith
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J.J.
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Census Crown © www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You were right about this building but check out the date? ...Scroll to bottom...J.J.
http://www.ashrare.com/portsoken_prints.html
excerpt: "A charming antique print of the old inn taken down in 1793 - an engraved caption below the image gives a historical note. The inn used to stand on the east side of the Minories a little to the north of St. Clare Street, more or less opposite the top of India Street. "
( is it supposed to say 1893, or was it replaced with the next one?)
also an index to a photo? but likely only available on c.d.
http://www.ashrare.com/portsoken_prints.html
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J.J.
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Census Crown © www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I wonder if they just still called the address "the fountain?" The area seems to have a "fountain court, minories"...maybe there was actually a fountain, then, in the centre of the area which also a landmark. J.J.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=9294&str
"When the "Old Fountain" Inn was pulled down in 1793, Fountain Court seems to Have been rebuilt and enlarged, so that it also covered the site of "London Prentice Yard."
and this...amazing
On or adjacent to the site of "The Old Fountain" Inn, taken down in 1793, of which there is an engraving in Smith's Antiquities of London, Plate LXV. Over the fireplace of the dining-room of this old inn was a date within a year of 1480.
From: 'Fountain Court', A Dictionary of London (1918). URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=9294&str. Date accessed: 01 March 2007.
http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/db/hri3/gis_20050804.jsp?mode=bailey&map=rocque&map_item_id=1870
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« Last Edit: Friday 02 March 07 03:49 GMT (UK) by J.J. »
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Keith Sherwood
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Hi again, J.J.
What a remarkable find that picture of "The Fountain" is - in fact all those rare prints give a really fascinating clue to the area the CARTER's lived in from the 18thC thru' to the 1880's. I believe they were possibly in the clothes trade in Rosemary Lane/Petticoat Lane before moving up in the world with their furniture and upholstery business in The Minories.
And it does indeed look as though that lovely old building was taken down in 1793, probably to be replaced with something not nearly as interesting.
I still believe something drastic must have happened to the low numbers in The Minories after 1881, as the numbers up to the mid-forties in the 1891 Census appear to be unoccupied.
Perhaps major redevelopment, or a catastrophic fire - still looking for evidence...
Many thanks, might get along to that SW17 emporium and see whether any of those scenes of London are worth getting hold of.
keith
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J.J.
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These are even better as they are online to view! another etching of the old fountain inn...and lots more!!!
http://www.motco.com/series70/default2.asp
Did you catch the old bailey map etc. url I added to the last posting? Interesting stuff!  J.J.
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Keith Sherwood
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My! J.J,
You have been busy while this part of the world slumbers; and
you really do get the bit between your teeth when on the case of something. These are all excellent links, and The Fountain must have rung with the sights, sounds - smells! - and the taste of good beer for many, many years. I just wonder whether the CARTER's had made the move to number 16, next door, by 1793. (They were certainly there by 1817...). But even so, living quite nearby in Rosemary Lane, they must have known about the place and might well have frequented it.
I was able a while ago to experience what it must have been like to live next door to an old London Pub when I visited The Sutton Arms at 6, Carthusian Street, next door to where my gt-gt-gt-grandfather Henry Pakeman GURNER lived between at least 1841 and 1864. The pub today seems quite old, though my ancestor's house next door is fairly recent. When I went up the stairs to the toilet - all uneven floors and walls out of true (I promise, it wasn't the drink!) - I couldn't help touching the adjoining wall with number 5 and imagining it was 160 years ago and Henry P.G. was sitting quietly in his chair next door.
But I do get carried away at times...
keith
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J.J.
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That was most enjoyable reading, Keith...( despite the horsey connotation  )
and I know most of us would love to experience that same feeling...
I'm glad that there is now protection for those old buildings so that they
can stand for many more years...That one stood all that abuse and age, over 300 years. The concrete jungles we create now aren't going to leave much of a legacy.
all the best, J.J.
Yes, I couldn't resist one more search...(what can I say, the topic interests me, I just did a google whenever I sat down at the computer to check my mail)...this site says the fountain illustration was done in 1796, so it may not have been torn down yet after all. Would the London archives have that information.?..maybe they can tell you who was living at that location at the turn of the century...
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=45069
The Old "Fountain" in the Minories, from a View by N. Smith (1798)
From: 'List of illustrations', Old and New London: Volume 2 (1878), pp. X-XII.
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Keith Sherwood
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J.J,
Yes, I'm still not entirely convinced that The Fountain was taken down in 1793 after all. And I'm definitely going to spend a day at The Guildhall Library in London this month to explore their records further. I do have a note somewhere about who was at The Fountain in those early decades of the 19thC from the Directories they hold there, but not to hand at this very moment.
And finally, I think the main problem with London and old surviving pubs and churches and domestic dwellings is the terrible damage done in WW11 during the Blitz, unfortunately, never mind the developers and the dreadful things that were allowed to happen in the 1960's and 1970's, for instance...
My KERSHAW family lived just round the corner from Carthusian St., in Charterhouse Square, and miraculously the corner they lived in - late 18thC - is still pretty much intact (No's 12-14); whereas most of the rest of the Square was flattened by German bombs.
Sorry about the horse-y stuff; I've a bit of a passion for Newmarket Races in the summer just down the road.
keith
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J.J.
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I was just kidding you, Keith, I thought it was cute...as long as you weren't picturing an "old mare"...although, she really "ain't what she used to be"  J.
(Wish I could go with you on that search...insert green with envy icon here)
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Keith Sherwood
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J.J.,
If there's anything fairly straightforward that you'd like me to look into there for you, let me know. Not sure when I'll be going, however, but certainly not till after The Ides of March...
keith
N.B. I'm obviously getting rather long in the tooth myself, as this week I had a letter from my dentist saying he wasn't doing my Denplan arrangement any more; just lots of expensive private work - looks like purely cosmetic to me. So I'm searching for a new dentist now...
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) would be worth a shot !!