|
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: Help - I'm so confused! (Read 4101 times)
|
jesshugo
RootsChat Extra
 Offline
Posts: 95
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
I always believed my GGran was Jane Durrant - her marriage cert 1900 says shes 25, spinster and her dad was Charles Durrant. 1901 census says she was born Ancona Italy, British Subject. Thought I'd try to find when she came to England - no luck finding her in 81/91 census so long shot looked up Jane born Italy c1875 and found her as Jane Violet (transcript says Victor but original image obviously Violet) in 81 with her dad Charles aged 36 (image looks more like 56 to me) born Plymouth, her mum Carrie L c1853 plymouth, sister Emelia 1866 Italy and brother Alfred 1880 Plymouth.
In 91 census she's a Voiliot and with her brother living at her Grandmother Susan(susannah) Freeman. Mum/Dad/sister have disappeared - can't find a death or other census entry for them - and no marriage for sister.
I ordered her brothers bc and his parents are Charles Brook Violet and Susannah (Freeman). Can't find a marriage for a Violet to a Freeman.
Curious as to where the Durrant came from I tried and found Jane Violet aged 21 married an Arthur Durrant in London 1895 - father John Charles Violet. So she was no spinster and just changed her dad's name to fit? Possibly because she had a 3 year old child called Durrant and it made life easier.
I looked up the Freeman Grandmother in all the census 41-01 and it appears she did have a daughter called Mary Susannah who is still at home in 71 (which makes me wonder if she is susannah/carrie if she was the mother of the girls as they were born 66 and 75) but missing in 81 (so could be my mother of Alfred). Also she would have been 13 when she had Emelia in Italy - would a girl of the age been in Italy without her mother .. her father was in Royal Navy...could she have gone with him? - my guess is the girls had a different mother. Mary Susannah Freeman married a Richard Barkell in 1882 which if she is my lady explains her (although that would mean she either wasn't married to Violet or she decided she was a spinster again otherwise she'd have used her Violet and called herself a widow - wouldn't she?)
Is Charles Charles Brook or John Charles? why can't I find a marriage/death/census other than 81 for him? I assume he was born in Plymouth - I can't see why he'd lie for himself but not the girls.
Where did Emelia go? and then Alfred decides to vanish after the 91 census - what happened to him - no death - no marriage?
I then found that Granny Freeman's maiden name was Lamb and her mother was Mary Violett ... could Charles and Mary be related in anyway?
why are these people trying to drive me crazy?
Can anyone offer any suggestions as to my Devon Violets or where to go from here? Please!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Vincent, Violet (Devon/Italy), Doling (Hampshire),
Powell (Hampshire/Surrey), Longhurst (Surrey), Freeman (Devon), Lamb (Devon/Kent), Durrant, Acquabona (Italy), Elson (Surrey), Hugo, Curtis, (Bristol/Isle of Man), Round (Bristol, Dudley, Hants Staffs) Budge (Cornwall) Thomason (Staffs ,Salop)
Hugoe (Cornwall,Devon,Lancs) Roach (Cornwall) Treneman (Cornwall) Pritchard (Staffs)
Griffiths (Bristol,London,Somerset)
|
|
|
merc2081
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 448
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
This might seem a silly question, but why, in 1891 have you got Jane and her brother as Susannah Freeman's grandchildren?
With due respect, I think you've asked too many questions in one go!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
tazzie
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4344
|
Jess.....I see you have posted this all on a tree on Ancestry.
I think the first step would be to find why you have match the names Durrant & Violet together. Even some pretty weird transcribing would not do that.
Post for a 1891 census someone may be able to find them.
You also have the cert for the marriage what was Charles ( the fathers)occupation.
It may be purely coincidence to have Jane b Italy in the same year so I would advise checking the two suggestions above.
Tazzie
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Liscoe -all Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks. Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London Rewallin/Underwood -Devon Casbolt-London/Cambridge Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds This information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
jesshugo
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 95
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Tazzie....
I matched Durrant and Violet as I found a marriage cert for Arthur Durrant marrying a Jane Violet in 1895 her father John Charles Violet interpreter deceased. I was always told my GGMs maiden name was Durrant but I could find no Jane Durrants that fitted - when I told my cousin this lady was from Italy he knew she had be born there but didn't know if she was Italian or british.
If Mary Susannah Freeman is my Susannah or Carrie she had married her sisters husbands brother in 1882 and he had died by the 1891 census. Charles Violet - can't find him anywhere and I wondering if he perhaps was Italian and went back home.
Very oddly there is a Charles Violet with wife Susannah and children in the census from Devon but about 20 or more years younger than mine and they are in the 81 census at the same time as mine.
I know I am trying to look at too many things at once but you can see why I'm confused apart from name spellings and changes they are also very flexible with the truth when it comes to certificates.
jess
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Vincent, Violet (Devon/Italy), Doling (Hampshire),
Powell (Hampshire/Surrey), Longhurst (Surrey), Freeman (Devon), Lamb (Devon/Kent), Durrant, Acquabona (Italy), Elson (Surrey), Hugo, Curtis, (Bristol/Isle of Man), Round (Bristol, Dudley, Hants Staffs) Budge (Cornwall) Thomason (Staffs ,Salop)
Hugoe (Cornwall,Devon,Lancs) Roach (Cornwall) Treneman (Cornwall) Pritchard (Staffs)
Griffiths (Bristol,London,Somerset)
|
|
|
MaryA
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 7163
St Chads, Kirkby
|
Starting back at the very beginning, do you have one of her children's birth certificate ? does it say his mother was "late Durrant, formerly ??" meaning that Durrant was actually a married name and that she had a maiden name different?
You haven't given us her name in the 1901 census .....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukLunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford) Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin) |
|
|
tazzie
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4344
|
Hi Jess....
Right at the begining...Arthur John Durrant (what age on cert?)
Jnae Isabella Violet (what age on cert?)
They married in Islington in 1895 so for her to re-marry in 1900 we have to look for a death to Arthur first. By having his age at marriage this will narrow it down by searching GRO.
Tazzie
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Liscoe -all Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks. Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London Rewallin/Underwood -Devon Casbolt-London/Cambridge Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds This information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
MaryA
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 7163
St Chads, Kirkby
|
I'm confused - the only Jane born Ancona, Italy in the 1901 census seems to be Jane Vincent, married to John in Northamptonshire. No problem there if this is your girl.
But if she married in 1900 then presumably the child Arthur isn't the product of this marriage, so what does it say on his birth certificate?
So she was no spinster and just changed her dad's name to fit? Possibly because she had a 3 year old child called Durrant and it made life easier.
I would suspect that having people think she was an unmarried mother named Durrant would have made life more difficult not easier than if she was known as a widow.
But on thinking about it, if she was just asked her name - answering Jane Durrant which was written down, and then if she just answered "Charles" for father's name the registrar may have made the assumption that it was Charles Durrant. Rather inefficient all round, but it's possible.
I still say that her child's birth certificate is a must have and see what that has to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukLunt (Wavertree/West Derby), Forshaw (West Derby), Richardson (Knowsley), Kent (Cheshire), Cain (Hertfordshire, London), Larkins (Bedfordshire, London), Nunn (London), Lenton, Hillyard (Bedfordshire), Parle, Lambert, Furlong, Wafer (Wexford) Special separate interest in Longford (Blackrock, Dublin) |
|
|
tazzie
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4344
|
As you say MaryA mistakes on certifacte entries can happen and go unchecked by all parties.
I do not have access to census so can someone give details of the child please.
Tazzie
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Liscoe -all Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks. Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London Rewallin/Underwood -Devon Casbolt-London/Cambridge Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds This information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
CatOne
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4825
|
If its the one mentioned above by MaryA, it says Arthur "Do" (for Vincent) 4 London Dulwich
+ visitor John Smart 38 mar Beds Kempston
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Dunning/Downing, Osborn/e, Astley -Cheshire/Birmingham/Middlesex Fanthorpe/Hall/Driffill/Storm - Lincolnshire Bower/Woodward/Bingham/Pettinger/Shaw - Nottinghamshire Shaw, Marland - Lancashire Broph(e)y - Queens County, Ireland Richards - Neath Swansea Hunt/Fox - Lincs, Waterfield/Middleton - Staffs Hart/Harland/Askew/Scales - Yorkshire Brereton/Vickers - Cheshire Gleaves/Sandford/Hulse/Hulme - Wolstanton/Audley Staffs Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov |
|
|
CatOne
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4825
|
Theres the registration of an Arthur Ernest Viollet June 1898 Hackney Vol 1b Page 583
Could that be the one?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Dunning/Downing, Osborn/e, Astley -Cheshire/Birmingham/Middlesex Fanthorpe/Hall/Driffill/Storm - Lincolnshire Bower/Woodward/Bingham/Pettinger/Shaw - Nottinghamshire Shaw, Marland - Lancashire Broph(e)y - Queens County, Ireland Richards - Neath Swansea Hunt/Fox - Lincs, Waterfield/Middleton - Staffs Hart/Harland/Askew/Scales - Yorkshire Brereton/Vickers - Cheshire Gleaves/Sandford/Hulse/Hulme - Wolstanton/Audley Staffs Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov |
|
|
CatOne
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4825
|
No scrap that, found him with parents in 1901 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Dunning/Downing, Osborn/e, Astley -Cheshire/Birmingham/Middlesex Fanthorpe/Hall/Driffill/Storm - Lincolnshire Bower/Woodward/Bingham/Pettinger/Shaw - Nottinghamshire Shaw, Marland - Lancashire Broph(e)y - Queens County, Ireland Richards - Neath Swansea Hunt/Fox - Lincs, Waterfield/Middleton - Staffs Hart/Harland/Askew/Scales - Yorkshire Brereton/Vickers - Cheshire Gleaves/Sandford/Hulse/Hulme - Wolstanton/Audley Staffs Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov |
|
|
jesshugo
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 95
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Mary A
I'm so certain Jane is my girl.
As she had a 4 year old in the 01 census I looked back to 91 to see if she was in England by then and found Jane Viollot born Italy c1875 living with her brother Alfred and Grandmother Susannah Freeman. Back anohter 10 and Jane Violet (although the transcription says Victor - the original image is clearly Violet) is born Italy c1875 with dad Charles, mum Carrie L, sister Emelia (also Italy) and brother Alfred. Alfred's bc gives his mother as Susannah formerly Freeman. It is surely too coincidental to have Violets/Freemans/Durrants all matching up and not be them ... isn't it?? Can I have a Jane Violet one minute a Durrant the next a marriage between a Jane Violet and a Durrant and a Jane Durrant to Vincent and it not be. Haven't as yet found Arthur c1897 Dulwich bc.
There seems to be 3 or 4 Violets born and died a few years before Janes brother with the middle name Brook (as Charles had on Alfreds certificate) do you think it would be worth ordering them up to see what the parents names were on them?? I also found a death certificate for a Brooks Violet born 1911 in Sussex... it breaks my heart to spend money on certificates that aren't right!
Jane only gives her name as formerly Durrant on her other childrens certificate (my gran etc).
Thanks for your interest in this ... by the way am I supposed to press the reply button or the personal message button when answering these messages?
Jess
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Vincent, Violet (Devon/Italy), Doling (Hampshire),
Powell (Hampshire/Surrey), Longhurst (Surrey), Freeman (Devon), Lamb (Devon/Kent), Durrant, Acquabona (Italy), Elson (Surrey), Hugo, Curtis, (Bristol/Isle of Man), Round (Bristol, Dudley, Hants Staffs) Budge (Cornwall) Thomason (Staffs ,Salop)
Hugoe (Cornwall,Devon,Lancs) Roach (Cornwall) Treneman (Cornwall) Pritchard (Staffs)
Griffiths (Bristol,London,Somerset)
|
|
|
jesshugo
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 95
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
CatOne
Thanks - I don't know ... I guess I know how I'll be spending my day!
jess
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Vincent, Violet (Devon/Italy), Doling (Hampshire),
Powell (Hampshire/Surrey), Longhurst (Surrey), Freeman (Devon), Lamb (Devon/Kent), Durrant, Acquabona (Italy), Elson (Surrey), Hugo, Curtis, (Bristol/Isle of Man), Round (Bristol, Dudley, Hants Staffs) Budge (Cornwall) Thomason (Staffs ,Salop)
Hugoe (Cornwall,Devon,Lancs) Roach (Cornwall) Treneman (Cornwall) Pritchard (Staffs)
Griffiths (Bristol,London,Somerset)
|
|
|
jesshugo
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 95
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Tazzie
Durrants Marriage Cert 10 November 1895 Islington both Jane and Arthur are shown as 21.
Arthur Vincent in the 1901 census (I can only assume was originally Durrant - but I'm looking at both) was born c1897 Dulwich London.
Thanks
jess
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Vincent, Violet (Devon/Italy), Doling (Hampshire),
Powell (Hampshire/Surrey), Longhurst (Surrey), Freeman (Devon), Lamb (Devon/Kent), Durrant, Acquabona (Italy), Elson (Surrey), Hugo, Curtis, (Bristol/Isle of Man), Round (Bristol, Dudley, Hants Staffs) Budge (Cornwall) Thomason (Staffs ,Salop)
Hugoe (Cornwall,Devon,Lancs) Roach (Cornwall) Treneman (Cornwall) Pritchard (Staffs)
Griffiths (Bristol,London,Somerset)
|
|
|
JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4466
|
Hi jesshugo,
I readily understand why you have gone down the paths you explained in your post.
However it is hard for us - starting from scratch as we are.
So, before we explore further, I think we need to go step by step.
The first steps would be if you were to give us, please:
a) full details of Jane's 1900 marriage certificate including the place, her husband's name, their occupations, their ages, whether Jane is described as a spinster or not, and the names and occupations of the respective fathers,
b) full details of the 1895 DURRANT-VIOLET marriage certificate, and
c) full details of the 1901 census entry.
That way we might be able to work backwards from these known facts and ask you more questions about any information you have which might help to sort out the puzzle.
It sounds like a good puzzle so I hope that you will help us to help you 
All the very best,
JAP
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
|
|
|
|
|
