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Author
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Topic: Where were they born! (Read 366 times)
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 156
Katherine Pasley
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I have not been able to identify the birthplace of the children of this couple:
William Henry Douglas Cooke and Catherine Matilda McMinn.
They met in Tasmania. His death certificate gives his place of birth as Hereford, England, that he died at 81, and had spent 2 years in Tasmania and 42 years in NSW. I don't think they ever married, and I have found a possible earlier marriage for him in England.
The children are:
Constance b. abt 1872
Isabel I b abt 1878
William Harold b abt 1880
Carmelita b abt 1881
John Edward b abt1885
William Harold gives his birth place as Sydney at marriage (in Hobart) and on his death certificate. I have found their marriages and deaths in NSW but have not been able to find the births as Cooke, Cook or McMinn.
Catherine eventually left William and retuirned to Hobart, and William Harold met his wife there while visiting his mother.
Anyone got any ideas?
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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ChristineR
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1353
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Anyone got any ideas?
All that I can think of is that you get a transcript agent to check what places of birth are given on the siblings marriages. (if in NSW) Sometimes a child will think that they were born in a place that they lived in as a child.
I saw that possible marriage in England, and fooled around in the 1861 census - there were only three lots of Cook/e in St George Southwark, Surrey in 1861, none of them William. I did see a William and Mary without any children in Herefordshire, both aged about 30/32. Didn't see a William and Harriet, they were the only two female names on offer on FreeBMD. I didn't keep looking as I dont know what age or occupation your William is. The name is a little common.
By the way, doing a google on Catherine, you probably know this, but just in case, the Tasmania Archives have a record of her applying to the Education Dept for a teaching position in 1864. If she did not marry William, then that would put an end to any teaching career.
I could not see your people born in Victoria.
Christine
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRandall, from Harwich, Essex to Australia Parish, from Caldicote, Cambridgeshire to Australia |
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 156
Katherine Pasley
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Thanks Christine, that's a good idea. Do you know if you would have had to produce a birth certificate to get married in the late 1800's?
Annette
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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ChristineR
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1353
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I wouldn't think you would have to produce a birth certificate - there just was not that emphasis on identity in those days, you could call yourself anything you liked without any legal stuff to go through. Some churches might have liked a baptismal certificate perhaps, to show you were a member of their religion, especially in a mixed marriage (Catholic, Protestant).
As part of the registration process at that time they are asked their age (they can lie, depending on what they have told the impending spouse) and their parents, including mum's maiden name. (they might not get these details right if one or both of their parents died while they were children)
Sometimes when stuck, the only way to get more info is to research the siblings.
Christine
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRandall, from Harwich, Essex to Australia Parish, from Caldicote, Cambridgeshire to Australia |
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 156
Katherine Pasley
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Thanks Christine
What I really was trying to do was to trace William Henry Cooke and Catherine Matilda McMinn, and I thought I would be able to do this through the children.
Catherine Matilda's death certificate says she was a widow, married in Tasmania at 24 and lists the children. She died in NSW in 1920, and the informant was the youngest son John Edward Cooke.
William Henry Douglas Cooke's death certificate says not married, and lists no children. His father on the certificate is Thomas, Church of England Minister, and that he was born in Herefordshire. DC informant was the common law husband of the eldest daughter Constance, William Oram. Constance's death is registered both as Cooke and Oram. William Henry died of a self inflicted gun shot to the head. He is buried in a Presbyterian Cemetery Sutherland. DC also states 2 years in Tasmania and 42 years in NSW. If his age at death is correct he would have been 37 when he came to Tasmania.
I have found a possible marriage for William Henry Douglas Cooke in England, and a possible child in the 1861 census, but no William Henry.
I believe Catherine left William Henry and returned to Tasmania, and that William was bitter and said he had never been married to Catherine and had no children. She later came back to Sydney because she died there in 1920.
This is definitely my brick wall, and a puzzle I can't leave alone.
Annette
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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ChristineR
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1353
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On the face of what you just told me, there are two scenarios 
the children were not William Henry's children - and that explains why you cannot find any births OR the children were not mentioned because they were not the product of a legal marriage. It depends how the question was asked by the registrar, or how pedantic the registrar was in recording things correctly. It might be that Constance and her husband were aware that her mother was not married to William (he was dead - he wasn't about to mention the first marriage if it was his)
I have had a son leave himself and his four siblings off his mother's death cert because she did not marry him until well after they were born - in fact I don't think they even knew for sure who their father was, they were given her first married surname. Besides that, he had the name of her first husband wrong, plus the name of her father wrong, so death certs can be really unreliable and you cannot jump to too many conclusions based on that information. The same lad gave differing information about his own father on both of his marriages - none accurate!
I will have another look at the McMinns in Victoria - there were lots of them.
The other thing you can do is to purchase the English marriage certificate - or check film of parish records if available through the LDS (though you need to know the church for that, not just the civil reg district) If that fellow's father is Thomas and/or a minister then you are on the right track.
cheers
Christine
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRandall, from Harwich, Essex to Australia Parish, from Caldicote, Cambridgeshire to Australia |
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 156
Katherine Pasley
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Yes Christine it is William giving me the grief.
How can 5 live births and there were another 2 deceased disappear. They are listed on Catherine's death certificate, even if not on William Henry's. They do not show up on NSW BMD, or for that matter anywhere else in Australia, but it should be NSW.
There are also a couple of other anomalies that add to the confusion. Both William and Catherine's death certificates have been changed many years after the event, and some other family information on BMD is also missing. I spoke to them (BMD) to day and will fax them tomorrow and see what they have to say. I want to know who and how people can make changes after the event. Maybe this where the problem is.
Thanks for trying, I will let you know how I go.
Annette
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Logged
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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ChristineR
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1353
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ahh, a couple of deceased children? do you have details for them at all?
It is possible of course that they were just hopeless with registering births, but it is almost impossible not register a death. Births had to be registered within a certain time frame, and then you were not allowed to register unless you paid a fee, I think it was six months.
Have you checked all the known burial places of the family - often missing people turn up buried with grand parents, uncles, whatever.
If there was some sort of legal or inheritance issue, then certificates can be changed by authorities when someone proves the information on them to be wrong. If William did marry back in England, then there could have been some fuss made on his death from the first family once they heard that he had died. Have you looked to see if he had a Will, and found any Probate proceedings? Because if there were legal issues then that is where it might show up.
Also I have noticed that sometimes when the parents get old they are split up and placed with different children, or do the rounds, so unless you have some other information to say otherwise there is no way of knowing if there was any animosity.
Just a few more thoughts
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRandall, from Harwich, Essex to Australia Parish, from Caldicote, Cambridgeshire to Australia |
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acookey
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 156
Katherine Pasley
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Just to finish off this thread, NSW BMD has advised that the children were probably never registered, and that they would not have needed birth certificates to marry.
I found the death of a child born to William Henry Cooke and Catherine Matilda, which was registered. NSW BMD say that they did not cross reference births with deaths and marriages.
Other references to children have come up in William Henry's will and his eldest daughter's son's war records. So there is no doubt they had children, and I can probably safely assume they never married.Thanks all for your help and suggestions.
Annette
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Logged
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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