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Topic: Tombs family (Read 918 times)
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Anarchia
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Posts: 101
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am seeking information on the following Tombs family:
James Tombs, born 1836-1841 in Hanley Castle, based on census returns, worked as a bedstead maker and later manufacturer hiring many people. I can't identify him on the 1841 or 1851 censuses.
James had children by 3 women:
Ellen Bidder m. James in 1856
Ellen and James, both of whom died early (based on Free bmd entries and censuses)
Fanny Sutton (was his servant, called herself Tombs on the 1891 census, but it is unlikely that they married)
Percy b. abt. 1878, Birmingham
Sydney, b. abt 1882, Birmingham
James, b. abt 1885, Birmingham
Fanny and sons emigrated to New Zealand in abt 1892
Elizabeth Simpson (also James servant initially) m. James in 1893
Constance b. 1893, Birmingham
Harold b. 1895, Birmingham
I have been unable to find birth records for James, Percy, Sydney or James jnr - I have looked under Sutton and Tombs for an entry for the sons on Free bmd. Could they not have been registered at all?
Any information would be great, but I would be particularly interested in contacting any descendents of Constance and Harold in case they can tell us more about James and his family.
Thanks,
Ana
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Baxter, Yorkshire Bezant - Wiltshire
Bluett - Suffolk Buist - Scotland
Chadwick, Yorkshire Gwatkin - Chepstow
Johnson - Ragnall Mason - Nottingham
Mettam - Sutton Parker - Ayrshire
Ryde - Middlesex Smith - London
Tunnard - Tuxford Winchester - Moray
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Ecneps
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Rosalie Mathilda Jönsson 1916-1999
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How about this one?
1851 HO107/2043 fol.91 p.7 Unicorn Inn, Great Malvern, Worcs
James Tombs servant 14 Tap Boy Hanley, Worcs
(indexed on ancestry as aged 19 which may have put you off)
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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Ecneps
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Rosalie Mathilda Jönsson 1916-1999
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There is a James Tombs aged 7, with family, in Castle Morton, Worcs, maybe a bit young, but ages never what they seem in census. All these places are very close together, (have a look on genuki ) Castle Morton, Hanley Castle, Great Malvern
Will have another look tomorrow, past my bedtime now!
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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Anarchia
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 101
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for the help. It is nice to have someone else's brain working on this too! It has been an issue in my husband's family for years, and it made it awkward for my husband's brother to get permission to live and work in England (as he could, then, if his grandfather was British).
I don't think either of the Castlemorton James Tombs can be mine, because I can trace them forwards on the later censuses. The stone mason's son definitely isn't. But, if you have the patience for it, a second opinion would, be nice.
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Baxter, Yorkshire Bezant - Wiltshire
Bluett - Suffolk Buist - Scotland
Chadwick, Yorkshire Gwatkin - Chepstow
Johnson - Ragnall Mason - Nottingham
Mettam - Sutton Parker - Ayrshire
Ryde - Middlesex Smith - London
Tunnard - Tuxford Winchester - Moray
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JAP
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Posts: 4359
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Just some thoughts.
... James Tombs, born 1836-1841 in Hanley Castle ...
Ellen Bidder m. James in 1856
Given the date of the marriage, one would suspect that an earlier birthdate would be more likely - if 1841, James would have been only 15/16 when he married which does seem a bit young. What age does the marriage certificate say? Father's name and occupation? Parental permission if he was a minor? James's occupation and address? And any clues in the names of witnesses?
Have you found Percy in the 1881? From FamilySearch, he isn't with James TOMBS & servant Fanny SUTTON in Edgbaston. Is it certain that he was James's son ...
JAP
PS: There's the birth on FreeBMD of a Sidney Tom SUTTON, Kings Norton (which included most of Edgbaston, it seems), Jun qtr 1882.
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Ecneps
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Posts: 9150
Rosalie Mathilda Jönsson 1916-1999
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Would Hanley Castle be written Hanley?
Possibly, have been right through the 3 enumeration districts for the Parish of Hanley Castle, and in district 2 is the Village of Hanley (3 households) followed by the Village of Hanley Castle (8 households) then back to the Village of Hanley (3 households plus a large school) etc... and people often just gave the parish, or the village or the nearest town down as their birthplace on censuses.
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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Ecneps
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Posts: 9150
Rosalie Mathilda Jönsson 1916-1999
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There are only two Tombs families in the Parish of Hanley Castle in 1841:
HO107/1 fol.47 p.21 Coronation Lodge, Hanley Castle
Henry Tombs 30, Shoemaker
Ann " 30
Charles " 8
Henry " 5
Mary " 3
George " 4 months
Thomas Allen 40 Horsekeeper
Thomas Tombs 15 J.Shoemaker
all born in county
HO/107/1205/1 fol.25 p.3 Blackman's End, Hanley Castle
John Tombs 25 Ag. Lab.
Sarah " 20
James Purner 14 Ag. Lab (another James to consider! Not found in 1851)
Ann Tombs 6
Mary " 3
Benj. Hall 14 Ag. Lab
all born in county
Remember, adult ages in 1841 often rounded down to nearest 5 years
Look forward to seeing details from the marriage cert when you get it
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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JAP
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Posts: 4359
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...
I hadn't noticed the Sidney Tom Sutton entry. He was always Sydney, so I dodn't bother checking. I have asked a cousin to get in contact with one of his daughters to check his middle name - he did have one. ...
Ana, It just struck me - duh! - that perhaps 'Tom' was an abbreviation or mistranscription of Tombs! Very often illegitimate children had the surname of the father as their middle name. Well - this may just be wishful thinking!
JAP
PS: Always try variant spellings 
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Anarchia
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 101
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Information from the marriage certificate
James Tombs m. Ellen Bidder
19 Oct 1856 in Yardley, Worcestershire
James, 21, Bachelor, Occupation Packer, Living in Birmingham, Father Joseph Tombs, Fathers occupation Carpenter
Any chance anyone can find James and Joseph Tombs in 1841?
Ana
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« Last Edit: Thursday 03 January 08 21:52 GMT (UK) by Anarchia »
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Baxter, Yorkshire Bezant - Wiltshire
Bluett - Suffolk Buist - Scotland
Chadwick, Yorkshire Gwatkin - Chepstow
Johnson - Ragnall Mason - Nottingham
Mettam - Sutton Parker - Ayrshire
Ryde - Middlesex Smith - London
Tunnard - Tuxford Winchester - Moray
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Anarchia
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 101
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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P.S. Unfortunately, it cannot be the obvious one, namely Joseph Tombs, Mason, with wife Ann Tombs and son James Tombs b. 1834 (as well as other children), because that James is still with his parents in 1861, when our James is married to Ellen. 
I have hunted and hunted through ancestry and am just plain stuck. Do you think there is any point me getting his later marriage certificate? I can't find anything that looks like his death record. I know he was still alive in 1914, because he sent his son Percy a brass bed as a wedding present in that year.
I also suspect that James lied about his age with the '21' on the marriage certificate. I think he was probably born closer to 1837, based on his various census entries. Was 21 the age when yuo no longer needed parents consent?
Ana
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Logged
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Baxter, Yorkshire Bezant - Wiltshire
Bluett - Suffolk Buist - Scotland
Chadwick, Yorkshire Gwatkin - Chepstow
Johnson - Ragnall Mason - Nottingham
Mettam - Sutton Parker - Ayrshire
Ryde - Middlesex Smith - London
Tunnard - Tuxford Winchester - Moray
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4359
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Hi Ana,
Yes, in England persons under 21 needed parental consent at that time.
However, I'm a bit confused - you say that, on James's marriage to Ellen, James's father is James, a carpenter. But then you ask for lookups for a Joseph in 1841? Which is it?
JAP
PS: I don't seem to be able to find a little lodger Percy 'Smith' on the 1881 (on FamilySearch) in Edgbaston ...
And why did you think James might be the James WAGSTAFF with a TOMBS family in 1841?
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Anarchia
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 101
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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 Sorry, the father's name is Joseph.
My only reason for thinking that the James Wagstaff might be James Tombs was that he was the right age and with a Tombs family - not very well reasoned, just hunting.
Similarly for the Percy Smith - it just seems unlikely that a 3 year old would be a boarder with no relatives in the house, unless something odd was happening, and again, he is the right age, and seems reasonably close to Fanny and James.
I have found a Joseph Tombs who was a cabinet maker on the 1851 and 1861 censuses, b. 1821 in Malvern, Worcester, on the 1851 and b. 1814 in Castle Morton, Worcester, on the 1861, both times with a wife Martha. (Married in 1851 I think - at least there is an entry in Free BMD that matches this, although it is in an odd County.) No link to James Tombs that I can find though.
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Logged
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Baxter, Yorkshire Bezant - Wiltshire
Bluett - Suffolk Buist - Scotland
Chadwick, Yorkshire Gwatkin - Chepstow
Johnson - Ragnall Mason - Nottingham
Mettam - Sutton Parker - Ayrshire
Ryde - Middlesex Smith - London
Tunnard - Tuxford Winchester - Moray
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Pages: [1] 2
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