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Topic: Birth certificates re twins (Read 1176 times)
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griz
RootsChat Senior
 Offline
Posts: 410
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Barbara, Julie, Anne, Valda, Arran roots, Jebber, Liz( both busy and not so busy  ) You have all been tremendously helpful and informative Thank you all so much.
This is a very interesting, and more complex matter, than I thought. I have learned a lot from reading your very informative posts, and shared links, and I am sure you will have helped others who may have been wondering about this subject.
I had not thought about the inheritance factor and that would make a really powerful reason to enter a time of birth. And of course 'Not so busy' Lizzie, having had personal experience of being present at births, has been able to help us a lot. 
The person I am thinking of was born in the 19th C . However, I am interested in all the information that has been so kindly given.
I did not know that no birth certificate was certificate was issued for stillborn babies before 1927. Thanks for that, Valda.
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Boyle, Co. Leitrim Boyle, Co. Tyrone, Shaughnessy, Co in Ireland unknown, and Manchester, UK. Pope, Cheshire. Chadwick, Speke, Lancs. Frankish, Hunmanby, Yorks. Brindley, Audley, Staffs and Middlesex.
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LizzieW
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1969
Does anyone recognise this man?
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Well my dad and his twin sister were born in 1912, so it was the norm even then to put the time on the birth certificates of twins. The time of his birth is recorded as 6.5am (note not 06.05am as we would write it now).
Liz
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BENSON- Dalton in Furness (Ulverston) and Hull
BETTISON - Derbys
BOULTON - Dalton-in-Furness and surrounding areas
BRAND - Lincs
COCKETT - Lincs, Yorks, Lancs
DA COSTA (or variants) - Spain or Portugal, London (Middx), ?Hull
GILCHRIST - Scotland, Lincs
HINGLEY - Derbys/Yorks
MANN - Sussex, Kent, Herts
MUMBY - Lincolnshire and Hull
PEMBERTON - Ches, Lancashire
ROBINSON - Lincs
WHITTAKER/WHITAKER - Ches/Lancs
WRIGHT- London(?Middx),Hull
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
 Online
Posts: 6931
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You have times on the two birth certificates issued for the live births of twins - whether one died shortly after or not does not change the fact they were both born alive and that is crucial to the issuing of a birth certificate - no live birth no birth certificate.
Both time and date (and what is found on all birth certificates date and place) should be on twin birth certificates from the start of civil registration in 1837, though in the early days of civil registration the system was a bit irratic.
The question is not whether a time occurs on two twins' birth certificates, but whether the time would be on the birth certificate of a twin whose sibling was not born alive, so only one birth certificate was issued and after 1927 a stillbirth certificate was issued for the twin that died before the mother's labour or during it, but crucially never breathed, even for a few moments - so no time of birth because no live birth occurred.
A stillbirth certificate is neither a birth or death certificate.
In the cases you quote Barbara are you saying for instance that the time occurs on both your birth certificate and on your twin's birth certificate, or are you saying it is on your birth certificate and/or on your twin's stillbirth certificate?
Regards
Valda
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« Last Edit: Friday 27 April 07 06:43 BST (UK) by Valda »
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griz
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 410
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Thanks for your help Rae67.
Tephra, I am so sorry about your loss, and that of your sister. Very sad.
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Boyle, Co. Leitrim Boyle, Co. Tyrone, Shaughnessy, Co in Ireland unknown, and Manchester, UK. Pope, Cheshire. Chadwick, Speke, Lancs. Frankish, Hunmanby, Yorks. Brindley, Audley, Staffs and Middlesex.
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Lydart
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2474
Little Lord Fauntleroy
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Barbara ... so sad for your Mum to have lost two of her babies, twins or not ...
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Dorset/Wiltshire: Trowbridge, Williams, Sturney, Prince, Foyle, Fripp, Triggle ... and more Cornwall/Devon/CANADA: Pomeroy Somerset: Clark(e) Durham: Law London: Poplett Lancashire/Cheshire/CANADA: Stubbs, Walmesley Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Alan b
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 159
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My late nan was born in 1919 and was a twin and on her birth certificate it has the time but on her twin sisters no time is present.
My brothers are also twins, they were born in 1977 and the time is presnt on both their certificates.
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Bloomfield, Knights, Whitmore, Warner (Suffolk)
Hamlin (London, Yorkshire, Scotland, Suffolk)
Mattocks, Newick, Nutter, (Kent)
Mattocks (Staffs)
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Josephine
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1253
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My 3rd-g-grandmother, Amelia Barnett, was born 12 April 1840 in Chatham, Kent (Medway registration district). The time of birth is noted on her birth record.
I searched the birth and death indexes on Ancestry and there is no other birth or death in that quarter that could belong to a twin, so I have to conclude that, in this case, there was probably no twin.
My grandmother, who was a twin, was born in 1919 in the United States (Massachusetts). Her birth record has a section that says, "Twin, triplet, or other?" It also asks, "Color or Race".
Her mother was born in 1899 in the U.S. (Maine). Her birth record doesn't ask about multiple births but it asks "No. of Child, 1st, 2nd, etc." She was her mother's 3rd child. Her birth record has a line: "Living or Stillborn". It also asks, "Color".
My other great-grandmother was born in 1882 in Maine. Her birth was registered in 1928 (I think the original might have been destroyed in a fire.) It has the sections for number of child and living or stillborn as well as, "Legitimate or Illegitimate".
Regards,
Josephine
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Barnett (Chatham, Kent)
Beaumont (Gillingham, Kent)
Christy (Shropshire, Lancashire & Cheshire)
George (London area, incl. Bethnal Green)
Holland (Cheshire)
Parker (Chatham, Kent)
Pope (Middlesex)
Salisbury (Cheshire)
Simmons (Kent)
Cunningham, Dobson, Easton, Muir, Pryde & Oliver (Scotland to Canada)
Carson, Colbert, Colclough, Coy, McGlinchey, Riley, Rooney, Trotter & Waters (Ireland to Canada)
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griz
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 410
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It gets confusing when different methods are used to record the details, doesn't it?
Perhaps Amelia was a twin and the other twin was stillborn, if the stillborn were not registered. Then of course perhaps the recording of the time of birth was just added as an additional detail.
In the US, again there sem to be variations in the details recorded according to each State's requirements.
Personally, I think all certificates for all births, stillborn or live, multiple births or otherwise, should give the full details, just because it's not that much more work to record this material, such as time, multiple birth etc. and its better to have too much information than too little.
I can see, that in the earlier days of registration of births, and the likely reluctance of parents of those days to leave their homes to register the BMDs (when most births took place at home, many parents were illiterate, and hours of work were long) it was deemed advisable to keep the procedure simple.
I have been unable to find three births of a different branch ( on the free BMD) that should have been registered in the 1840's in Manchester/Salford but the parents were born in Ireland and moved to England as young adults and may not have realized they had to register the births, or perhaps they were simply resistant to the idea of registration.
As for the mystery of whether the ancestor of mine previously mentioned really was a twin or not, I don't suppose I will ever know. As the very helpful postings have shown, there is great variance in the way details were recorded.
My ancestor's birth certificate is an ordinary one. It has no time recorded, no mention of twin, however, an elderly relative years ago told me she was a twin.
Ah well, it just adds to the fascination of genealogy. There have to be some mysteries left unsolved.
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Boyle, Co. Leitrim Boyle, Co. Tyrone, Shaughnessy, Co in Ireland unknown, and Manchester, UK. Pope, Cheshire. Chadwick, Speke, Lancs. Frankish, Hunmanby, Yorks. Brindley, Audley, Staffs and Middlesex.
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Jebber
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 629
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Many birth went unrecorded in the early years of registration, the onus was on the registrar to get the information, registration only became compulsory in 1875, that is when the responsibility of registration switched to the parents.
Jebber
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CHOULES All
COLE Gt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset.
MONK Odiham, Hampshire.
RAM(M)EL(L), Kent.
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.
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griz
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 410
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Thank you Jebber.
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Boyle, Co. Leitrim Boyle, Co. Tyrone, Shaughnessy, Co in Ireland unknown, and Manchester, UK. Pope, Cheshire. Chadwick, Speke, Lancs. Frankish, Hunmanby, Yorks. Brindley, Audley, Staffs and Middlesex.
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