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Topic: Completed CARVER Cockayne Hatley marriage look-up c 1832 please (Read 907 times)
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janan
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Hi
Is anyone able to have a look at the Cockayne Hatley marriage registers c 1832 please? There is an unfortunate hole in the IGI for this period.
James CARVER (born Wrestlingworth c 1807) married Sophia ?Bird/Breed (born Southill c1812)
Their first child Amos was baptised in Wrestlingworth in 1833
Thanks in anticipation
Jan 
Originally I thought they married in Southill but now looks more likely it was in Cockayne Hatley, banns were certainly called there please see later postings towards end page 2
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 07 August 07 10:39 BST (UK) by janan »
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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The hole is covered by the BVRI, but there's no Carver marriages at all in Southill 1813-37, and no Sophia marrying anyone who could conceivably have been mistranscribed which should have been Carver
Wrestlingworth is covered on the IGI for this period, although Cockayne Hatley isn't, but they don't seem to have moved there until 1844 at the earliest.
Sorry!
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Thanks for looking David.
James is yet another Carver mystery as there is no baptism for him in Wrestlingworth, so have no idea who he belongs to. Given his year of birth I wonder if he might be a sibling of Ann and so son of the equally mysterious Thomas.
I suppose his baptism an marriage could have been non-conformist.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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Baptism perhaps, marriage no, as only the established church, Jews, and Quakers were authorised to conduct marriages in 1832. The fact that they had to marry in the parish church was the only way I have been able to even contemplate putting together some of my Southill baptist ancestors.
It always worries me when there is inconsistency; if they were siblings, why should Ann have been baptised and not James? Are there any other Carvers in censuses with a Wrestlingworth connection that you cannot account for, or is he the only one.
But the fact that the Carvers were serious Baptists, and Sophia was from Southill where the Carvers were from originally does make me wonder if it was a Baptist church related match, although again they baptised their children in the established church. He's not mentioned in Southill Baptist Church Book.
Have you been able to establish from Hitchin parish register if any of the Carvers were buried there? If for example John or Thomas were buried as children that would at least rule them out of the equation.
Regards
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Hi David
Thanks for the information re Baptist marriages, I'm not very up on non-conformists. Do you know when Baptists were authorised to conduct marriages? My great grandfather Robert Carver married in a Baptist chapel in 1893.
I agree it is puzzle there appears to be no christening for him - that's why I was pondering a non-conformist baptism. James is the only unaccounted for Wrestlingworth born Carver I have found, other than who on earth is Thomas  
Re the Hitchin Carvers, I have got no further with them having got thoroughly distracted chasing Ann and James and Jane daughter of Young and Mercy baptised 1833 whose first confirmed sighting is 1861 I will away to Hertfordshire and see if anyone there can help out.
Thanks again for your help
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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The 1837 changes permitted civil marriages and marriages in non-conformist churches.
These Carvers were pretty cavalier with baptising their children! Young and Mercy baptised some instantly, others some years after the birth. George and Mary were equally inconsistent.
John who married Martha was worse in that their son Jesse who appears to have been born before they were married in 1812 wasn't baptised until 1834. Do you know if this was a second marriage for him, as I wonder if he may have been the father of James b c 1809
Alternatively the William you have been enquiring about on the Cambs board might be another contender for James' father, with his 1805 Wrestlingworth marriage to Elizabeth Bird - who possibly was the Elizabeth who was buried in 1809. Did she die in childbirth? Then there's two baptisms of a Sarah Carver in 1811 and 1814 at Elsworth, Cambs, not far away from Wrestlingworth - I've checked the parish register transcript but no occupation is given, nor is there a burial of the first child. I also wonder if Sarah the wife died (can't find it though) and the Arrington marriage was his third.
This lot are almost as bad as the Duntons of Southill!
Regards
David
PS I can't find a Sophia born 1812 +/- 3 in Southill, either on the IGI or the BVRI, which adds a bit to the theory that they may have been baptists
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Hi David
You must be reading my mind re William and his possible third marriage! But I hadn't thought of James being William and Elizabeth's son (although had pondered Elizabeth dying 1809 being Elizabeth Bird) - might account for the lack of baptism, especially if William was racing back to Cambs to marry Sarah, whoever she might have been
By the way James and Sophia are living nextdoor James Bartle and his wife Sophia nee BIRD in 1851 and James and Sophia's (CARVER that is) daughter Martha married John BIRD to keep up the family tradition.
I haven't found another marriage for John who married Martha - although it has occurred to me that he might be John the elder who married Elizabeth rather than John and Elizabeth's son. Given James has a daughter Martha I suppose he could have also been born before the marriage.
They are such a confusing lot I really need the PR's for Wrestlingworth in my hands for constant reference.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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Hi Jan
I think you might be right about it being old John who married Martha - do you know if he was described as widower on the 1812 marriage entry at Eyworth? The only Martha Carver buried in Wrestlingworth was on 24 Aug 1819 aged 50, and there's not a spare John burial, so as she was older I can't think that it could have been any other John but the widower of Elizabeth. I like the fact that James named a daughter Martha as well, which adds a bit to the theory that he could have been a son of John and Martha as well.
I've been going through the burials in Wrestlingworth trying (desperately!) to get clues. Do you know if there was any detail on the burial of Jesse on 14 March 1802, as he seems to be another unexplained Carver?
And who was the Mary Carver who married James Bird in 1811?
Assuming she's connected to William, George and Young, it's amazing how four Carvers married four Birds.
Regards
David
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« Last Edit: Thursday 26 April 07 17:44 BST (UK) by bedfordshire boy »
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Hi
Last things first, they being easier,
Mary Carver who married James Bird is, as far as I can tell, sister to Young, George and William baptised 29 Mar 1791.
Jesse - maybe an unbaptised son of John and Elizabeth? (there is a death of an infant John in 1782 which doesn't match with a baptism either) I haven't seen the original entry so don't know if there is anymore detail. So yes he is another unexplained Carver. Perhaps he is Simeon, son of John and Elizabeth baptised 1794 and never to be spotted again, under another name? Or even John baptised 1785 who likewise vanishes if it is his father who married Martha which seem likely- I do need to check whether he is a widower. Although it probably isn't recorded
Jan (head spinning  )
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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Right, found Mary & Simeon now, forgot Carver sometimes changed to Calver!
A look up request should sort out if John buried 1782 at Wrestlingworth was the son of John and Elizabeth. Same needed for the 1802 Jesse burial. If someone reading this has access to Wrestlingworth PR transcript and could check these two burials it would go a long way to sorting out these Carvers! Edit - covered in subsequent post
But apart from these two all the others "seem" to have been baptised. I think what happened to John and Simeon is a separate issue, but I have the feeling that neither of them is Jesse.
The 1812 marriage "should" state if he was a widower, but in any case the age of Martha - born c 1769 - makes her a bit too old to have married John the son.
Regards
David
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« Last Edit: Friday 27 April 07 09:28 BST (UK) by bedfordshire boy »
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Hi David
Just saw your bit about no Sophia in Southill - thank you for checking that out.
I was only half serious when I suggested Simeon or John became Jesse - wouldn't put it past them to change names as they do seem determined to confuse
The burial details for Jesse and infant John came from the transcripts that waterfall kindly posted for me - so I would need to check the original entries for any extra information. Similarly that marriage of John to Martha - although I agree that Martha's age does point to it being the elder John.
Thanks again
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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Hi Jan
Burial entries in the transcript would give "son of John and Elizabeth" if it was in the PR/BT. If it merely gave John Carver, infant, then that's all the PR has.
About the only detail that the transcripts don't give are witnesses at marriages.
Pity!
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Thanks for that. They continue very loathe to help me out 
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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janan
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Just found a suitable extracted IGI record for Sophia
Sophia BREED 11 Oct 1812 Southill mother Mary BREED
I'd looked before and missed her. No suitable marriage though even searching James to Sophia at right time - still it is another step
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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bedfordshire boy
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There's no marriage of Sophia Breed on the BVRI at Southill, nor a burial on the NBI, so she must be a possibility. Frustrating that the marriage (if indeed they married) is being elusive. I've been through the Hugh Wallis site to see which Beds parishes between Southill and Wrestlingworth and generally in that area of Beds, have not been extracted onto the IGI in the 1830s, and there's only two that I can see - the hole in Southill which is covered by the BVRI, and Campton, where nothing after 1812 is on the IGI or BVRI. Just to say you've covered all bases, and if you've nothing better to do, it might be useful to check the microfilm of Campton to see if they did make a bit of a dog's leg and marry there.
Southill parish register transcript merely says illegitimate daughter of Mary Breed against Sophia's baptism. There's also a burial of a Mary Breed at Southill on 25 Oct 1812, just a couple of weeks after Sophia's baptism (no other detail on the burial). Now what would have become of a 2 week old orphan - usually raised by grandparents/siblings of the parents. I've never followed how she moved from Southill to Wrestligworth. I wonder...... but here I'm moving from speculation to the realms of fantasy! We don't even know if it's the right Sophia
Regards
David
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« Last Edit: Friday 27 April 07 14:51 BST (UK) by bedfordshire boy »
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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