|
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: ARMSTRONGS of Ravensden (Read 5103 times)
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
 Offline
Posts: 196
|
If any kind soul has access to Ravensden marriage records, I'd appreciate a couple of lookups.
My ggg-grandfather was John Armstrong of Ravensden in Beds, b about 1800 and baptised 15 November 1802 along with two siblings, Elizabeth and Ann. Their parents are given as John Armstrong and Sarah. (IGI extraction, Batch no C148781)
The children of John and Sarah baptised in the years either side of 1800 are the earliest Armstrong records in the batch, so it's likely that John Armstrong Senior came from somewhere else.
John Armstrong Junior married twice - first to Jane, with whom had at least one child, Sarah/Sally, baptised 16 Jan 1831.
Jane was buried at Ravensden All Saints 1 July 1833 (NBI)
John then married Eleanor Green with whom he had several more children, although the Rebecca listed on the IGI as the daughter of John and Eleanor is almost certainly the daughter of John and Jane, baptised late in a job lot with 2 younger siblings.
Eleanor also died young, and was buried 20 Jun 1843 at Ravensden All Saints. (NBI)
So my queries are:
Is there a marriage for a John Armstrong and Sarah around 1790-1800 in Ravensden?
Is there a marriage listed for John Armstrong and Jane in Ravensden? Date would be around 1828-1830.
And is his marriage to Eleanor Green listed? This would have been in 1833 or 1834. I found Eleanor's maiden name from her daughter Sophia's birth certificate, so am fairly certain that it is correct.
If anyone can help I would be very grateful!
Best regards
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
|
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
Many thanks, johnP -
The earlier marriage - of John Armstrong and Sarah - is probably the most important, as baptismal records and entries in the National Burial Index point pretty securely to the two wives of John Armstrong Jnr. His second wife Eleanor also appears in the 1841 census and on the birth certificate of her daughter Sophia. Dates would be nice, but aren't critical!
However, with John Snr, a marriage entry - if it exists in Ravensden - MIGHT give a clue as to where he came from. There are "probable" burials in Ravensden for him and for Sarah on the NBI, in 1826 and 1813 respectively, which point to birth dates of 1760 and 1766 respectively. A shame that neither of them made it to the 1841 census - I would have at least known whether they were "born in county" or not!
Thanks for the site reference for Ravensden - the John Armstrong mentioned in the militia list is probably mine, as he seems to have been the only one about at the time. In 1803 he would have been 43 years old, with at least four children under 10 so definitely a Class 4!
Which is another reason I think he might have come from elsewhere. The Ravensden baptisms for the children of John and Sarah don't start till the baptism of Edith in 1798, by which time he was 38 and Sarah 32. A bit late to be starting a family in those days?
No doubt it will all come out in the wash - eventually!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
bedfordshire boy
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3814
|
Ravensden is also on the BVRI which sometimes gives a bit more detail than the IGI. But none of the marriages that you are seeking is on it, although 1796 appears to be missing. But this is irrelevant as they married much earlier - they baptised the following in Ravensden
Mary 29 April 1787
Elizabeth 15 Nov 1802 - BVRI gives what is presumably a birth year of 1789
Ann 15 Nov 1802 - birth year 1791
John 15 Nov 1802 - birth year 1800
Perhaps JP could check these in the transcript? I wonder why they baptised Edith out of sequence in 1798 - perhaps she was sickly and wasn't expected to make it.
The earliest Armstrong marriage in Ravensden is in 1819, that of Edith
Unfortunately, as seems to be happening more and more, the IGI is playing up again this afternoon so I can't check as much as I would like. "The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server." Sounds like gobbledegook BS for "our servers are down again"
The IGI has a marriage in Wymington Beds between John Armstrong and Jane Houghton on 23 May 1825 but because of the IGI situation I can't see if they baptised any children there
I wonder if any of the marriages may have taken place in Northants, which is a bit of a black hole for me. They didn't take place in the other adjoining county of Hunts
Regards
David
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
|
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
David -
Thanks SO much! I had hoped you would look in, as the guru on all things Bedford...
Those birth years solve a difficulty - i.e. why the gap between Mary in 1787 and Edith in 1798. I had begun to think that perhaps Mary was a red herring....and that John and Sarah really HAD started late!
Although this family were great ones for baptising their children in job lots - John Jnr did it too, which has caused confusion over the parentage of his elder children as stated below.
The picture is now a great deal clearer.
I had found the marriage of John and Jane Houghton in Wymington - plus one daughter, Sally, baptised in Ravensden 16 Jan 1831. This seems about right, as subsequent census entries place her birth in about 1830. John and Jane seem to have waited 5 years or so before producing children in Ravensden, so perhaps there are other children born elsewhere - though they don't feature in census returns. Sally/Sarah is always shown as the eldest, with Rebecca/Rebekah 2 years younger.
I believe that Rebecca, baptised late and after John's marriage to Eleanor, was also the daughter of Jane. Census entries place her birth in 1832, well before Jane's death.
I have had a look in Wymington - between error messages from the IGI website! - but there are no Armstrong baptisms.
I see you have found a marriage for Edith in 1819 - I was just going to have a look for her in the early census returns to see if I could get a fix on a real birth date for her. Could I trouble you for her husband's name?
Thanks again!
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
Of course, it's just occurred to me - just because the marriage of Jane Houghton to John Armstrong in Wymington is the only relevant marriage on the IGI database, it doesn't have to be them! Wymington could be another red herring.....
Though I have found a suitable Eleanor Green b 1808 (which is exactly right working back from her age at burial) in Thurleigh - no marriage, though. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
bedfordshire boy
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3814
|
Flattery will get you everywhere! You mean I can't keep my nose out!
Sally is the only child of a John and Jane baptised in Beds, but the 5 year gap between the marriage concerns me, and Wymington and Ravensden are not exactly next door - possibly more likely is the John married in Wymington was from Northants which is only a mile away. But if it's a red herring, which I think it may be, where were John and Jane married? (A Jane Houghton was baptised in 1804 in Wymington, parents William and Rebecca, which may add weight to your theory about Rebecca, IF this is the right Jane - at burial on 1 July 1833 at Ravensden Jane Armstrong was 29.....it all fits!)
Edith married Joseph Cockins on 12 Nov 1819 at Ravensden. An Eady Cockins was buried at Thurleigh aged 37 on 7 Oct 1835.
Thurleigh PRs post 1812 are not on the IGI, which is why you can't see the marriage. But the BVRI has a marriage on 21 Oct 1833 at Thurleigh between John Armstrong and Eleanor Green - sorry, I only looked at Ravensden earlier, and I was getting VERY frustrated with the IGI! There were a LOT of Armstrong marriages in Thurleigh after 1833.
Regards
David
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
|
|
johnP-bedford
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 2838
where have you gone Joe di Maggio ?
|
Wendy,
Does your Armstong tree link to William b 1791 Ravensden who married Ann Gammons of Thurleigh, prior to 1821. William's father was Thomas b 1763 & married Phoebe Wisson. If so welcome to my tree, if not maybe David can find a link.
William & Ann, had son Thomas b 1830 Thurleigh, who married Jane Sabey of Bolnhurst, they had son Charles b 1851 who married two Partridge girls from the same family nest.
David, re. the IGl access ; Family Search aka LDS, are at the Olympia Show with a bank of 8 terminals, I expect they've diverted all the power.
Regards John
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukPartridge - North Beds; Peterborough Bishop - Bedford; Hunts, Hemingford Grey Allen - Hunts, Hemingford Abbotts Clement - Croydon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
|
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
A bit more flattery - you are wonderful!
The John Armstrong-Jane Houghton tie-up is looking more possible. Two daughters - Sally b 1830 and Rebecca b 1832 - his mother and her mother. And now you've found Jane's baptism, it ties up with her age at death. I have followed the two daughters through the census returns, and the extrapolated birth dates of 1830 and 1832 are fairly consistent. Add to that the fact that Rebecca named her first daughter Jane.... Sally didn't marry, although she appears to have had two illegitimate children according to the census returns - Caleb born in about 1850 and Edward in 1860, neither of which gives anything away, except perhaps their father's names?
And thanks for Eleanor! The marriage in Thurleigh fits nicely, and the date is perfect. John had two baby girls at home and must have been desperate for a new wife. I guess by the time Eleanor died in 1843 Sally was old enough to mind the others, because he does not appear to have married again.
i must check out the Thurleigh Armstrongs - so far I only have one connection. Ann Armstrong, daughter of John and Eleanor, married a Thomas Hart of Thurleigh, and they had lots of little Harts all over Thurleigh and Riseley. In 1841 and 1851 the only Armstrongs in Ravensden were John Jnr and his children. They must have come from somewhere....
Tell me, David, how can I get hold of the BVRI? Google says it's a CD set you can only purchase from the LDS - is that right?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
"Does your Armstong tree link to William b 1791 Ravensden who married Ann Gammons of Thurleigh, prior to 1821. William's father was Thomas b 1763 & married Phoebe Wisson. If so welcome to my tree, if not maybe David can find a link.
William & Ann, had son Thomas b 1830 Thurleigh, who married Jane Sabey of Bolnhurst, they had son Charles b 1851 who married two Partridge girls from the same family nest. "
No, John, not thus far anyway. I have only just returned to my Armstrongs after my initial dash backwards up the direct line from great-granny Sophia Chandler some 5-6 years ago. Sophia was the daughter of Eliza Armstrong and George Chandler of Marston Moretaine, Eliza in her turn being the daughter of John Armstrong and Eleanor Green.
I have a William Armstrong - b 1839, son of John and Eleanor, but he's the only one so far. He went on his travels quite early in life, marrying Frances Woodcraft of Millbrook in 1857 and ending up in Walsall by 1871.
However, for this branch I have been very dependent on the IGI, and as David has already proven, not everything is on Family Search by any means! William above, for instance, is missing from the Ravensden baptisms of John and Eleanor's children - or perhaps he just wasn't baptised?
But a William b 1791 in Ravensden would fit very well with John and Sarah's brood....perhaps John Snr (b 1760) had a brother named Thomas, and they moved to Ravensden together?
I would have a look, but Family Search is now completely down.... 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
bedfordshire boy
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3814
|
Hi Wendy & John
John, don't blame me, you did invite me to find a link!
It may be cat and pigeons time! I have to question whether Ann Gammons is the mother of Thomas. The BVRI has a marriage in Thurleigh on 1 July 1827 between William Armstrong and Ann Wrench, then baptisms of Sarah on 16 March 1828; Thomas on 17 Apr 1831; Eli on 26 Apr 1835. The problem arises as to who William age 20 is in 1841 living with them. Looking at 1851 it looks as though he was born in Wilden – there’s a christening in Wilden on 19 May 1822 of William son of William & Elizabeth. There’s a marriage on 24 Dec 1816 at Wilden between William Armstrong and Elizabeth Franklin and there’s a burial of Elizabeth Armstrong age 29 on 24 Feb 1825 at Wilden. It looks as though this William the elder might be the William who married in Thurleigh in 1827. But where does Ann Gammons come into the picture? Unless Ann Wrench was also a widow, maiden name Gammons, but the pre 1821 marriage must be wrong.
I also question if William was the son of Thomas and Phoebe. There’s no William christened in Ravensden or Thurleigh c 1791 on either the IGI or BVRI. But there is a William christened in Upper Gravenhurst, 15 miles away, on 27 May 1792, son of Thomas and Phoebe. Thomas and Phoebe Wisson were married in Upper Gravenhurst on 10 Oct 1788. There’s also a burial in UG of a William Armstrong on 7 Aug 1807 but it would need the PR to try to establish if it’s the same William. How have you connected William in Thurleigh in 1830 and the Upper Gravenhurst Armstrongs? Big fluorescent red question marks flashing in France! (and they're not flashing about the result of today's presidential election)
I'm not questioning: Thomas Armstrong, father William, married Jane Saby, father Thomas, on 12 Oct 1846 at Thurleigh, even though they were only 16
"She was only sixteen, only sixteen
He loved her so
But she was too young to fall in love
And he was too young to know"
I can’t prove a link into Wendy’s Armstrongs, but as there are no unexplained Armstrong burials in Thurleigh or Ravensden, and as there’s no-one unexplained in the two parishes in 1841 I have to wonder if William could be the son of John and Sarah – given their very patchy baptism record it wouldn’t surprise me if he got missed
Wendy – yes, the BVRI is only available from the LDS in Birmingham, but check the contents first on http://www.genoot.com/downloads/BVRI2/
Coverage is very patchy, and some people have found it no help at all. But if “your” county is not well covered on the IGI then it can be very useful. Hunts for example is one of my three counties and I swear by the BVRI (much as I’m swearing at the IGI today!). In Beds it’s useful in topping up bits post 1812 missing from the IGI eg Ravensden and Thurleigh – and it includes the baptism of William son of John and Eleanor in Ravensden on 17 Dec 1837
Regards to both
David
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
|
|
wdurham
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 196
|
John -
The IGI just popped up the answer to this search:
WILLIAM ARMSTRONG
Male
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
27 MAY 1792 Upper Gravenhurst, Bedford, England
Death:
Burial:
Parents:
Father: THOMAS ARMSTRONG Family
Mother: PHOEBE
A member submitted entry supplies Phoebe's surname as Wisson.
Now the census returns say Ravensden in 1851 and 1861 - but if William could not read or write, and the enumerator misheard him.....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
|
|
|
johnP-bedford
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 2838
where have you gone Joe di Maggio ?
|
Hello David ( & Wendy)
When I said '..... maybe David can find a link' it wasn't a challenge ... but you've taken up the baton. so run with it.
Anyway, the info I gave was (most likely) second hand from data I've gleaned from other multiple peoples trees, not that its officially recorded in my tree, as I havent checked it out until now... If two people say the same thing I assume it's most likely correct. William Armstrong was married to an Ann (assumed Gammons). I have him born 1791 & died 1869, & her b 1790 & died 1877. There were children, Sarah 1828 who married Thomas Cowley, Thomas 1830 who married Jane Sab(e)y, & Eli 1835 who mrried Mary Asplin. There is also a William 1821. From these same sources came Thomas Armstrong & Phoebe Wisson both from Upper Gravenhurst.
So take it on, or leave it be.. I think I need to review info next time I visit the Archives.
Cheers John
PS what's the 2 week's time weather forecast predict.... ? .
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukPartridge - North Beds; Peterborough Bishop - Bedford; Hunts, Hemingford Grey Allen - Hunts, Hemingford Abbotts Clement - Croydon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
|
|
bedfordshire boy
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3814
|
Hi John
Where there are doubts recourse to the PRs is the only answer. I've flagged my areas of doubt - and often a different set of eyes sees things totally differently (and not necessarily correctly!).
Unfortunately it's only the Upper Gravenhurst entries that will be in the transcripts so a day off and a trip to the Archives seems to be required.
Miserable and cold and wet recently, but Thursday is forecast 80 +, so bring your factor 30! Edit - And a hat! But NOT a knotted handkerchief
All the best
David
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11
|
|
|
|
|
