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Topic: Bucks Quarter Sessions 1833 (Read 1092 times)
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Rochdalian
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Hi
I'm looking for anybody who may have access to the records of the Bucks Quarter Sessions for the 15 Oct 1833. In reference to John Dawes aka John Knight.
Cheers
Bob Pearson
Melbourne, Australia
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Lincslass
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I am unsure whether there will be anything other than what is on the National Archives site as it seems pretty comprehensive, where he was found guilty of stealing a mare on 25th Sept and transported for life. Is that the one?
I am nipping into the RO on Tuesday so can have a quick look and see if it says anything else.
Jo
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Valda
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The A2A website does not have records from The National Archives indexed on it - but you can connect to The National Archives website from it. A2A has some records (10 million) from other archives such as County Record Offices mostly funded by lottery money to pay for the indexing of some of their holdings.
'These archives are cared for in local record offices and libraries, universities, museums and national and specialist institutions across England and Wales, where they are made available to the public.'
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp
So a search for John Dawes in 'Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies' records will give the reference to the Quarter sessions records. Quarter sessions records are held at County record offices, the higher court - the Assizes' records are held at The National Archives.
Once sentenced to transportation his fate moved him from county level to state record level so any further records will be at the The National Archives. It might be worth looking at The National Archives research guide
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp
scroll down to
Criminals, Tracing 19th and 20th Century
If he ended up in Tasmania I can really recommend the record office. I sometimes found out more about convicts from the Tasmanian record office than I often did from records in England, including in one case a list of his brothers and sisters.
Regards
Valda
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Lincslass
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Hi Valda
I have the QS reference from A2A for when I go on Tuesday to the Bucks RO. It is just that the site itself gives quite alot of detail about the crime and having read QSs before, I doubt there will be much more info than is already on the site. I just wondered if he had read the QS on the National Archives site.
Jo
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Valda
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Hi Jo and John
The A2A website isn't The National Archives website (as in capital letters for The National Archives at Kew which used to be known as the Public Record Office).
A2A has indexed archive records from record offices and repositories across the country nationally (well only England actually) so in that sense has national archives (without the capitals) indexed records but not The National Archives (abbreviated as TNA) indexed records.
The National Archives has its own website
You can search its catalogue here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/Default.asp?j=1
and records which you can order electronically here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
It holds up to a 100 miles of shelved records stretching back over nearly a thousand years so very little of what it holds is indexed
'the Catalogue contains 10 million descriptions of documents from central government, courts of law and other UK national bodies, including records on family history, medieval tax, criminal trials, UFO sightings, the history of many countries and many other subjects.'
It is misleading to describe A2A as 'the National Archives site' because people might think you mean The National Archives website. A2A describes itself as 'The English strand of the UK archives network'.
A2A home page links you to a relatively straightforward search of of The National Archives indexed records
'Or try a Global Search of A2A with 10 other resources based at TNA...'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx
At Buckinghamshire Record Office besides the quarter sessions I would search the calendar of prisoners if it has survived for 1833 (there are some years missing) since that may give you some more information.
The archivists will obviously know more about what it might be profitable to search, but the calendar is probably the next best source after the Quarter Sessions. The calendar should also indicate whether John had any previous convictions.
I think you are right that there probably won't be much more than is already stated on the A2A website for the Quarter Sessions (the only trial scripts as such that exist for this period are for the premier court 'The Old Bailey and they were not done by court officials, but by commercial interests who sold them to the general public as 'Proceedings of the Old Bailey').
I think it is too early for the start of the surviving Aylesbury prison registers (I know the Chaplain's Character Books at least have some coverage in the 1850s but I'm not sure how much before that - Bedfordshire gaol is unusual as a county gaol in that it has such good records surviving so early, many county gaols have little or no surviving records and certainly not this early).
From experience the Buckinghamshire newspapers don't give much extra information for ordinary prisoners standing trial in 1833 for relatively 'petty crimes' even though these were subject to transportation. Newspapers of this period (while the duty on paper still existed until 1855) largely covered counties (e.g. Bedford Mercury and Huntingdon Express dates 1 April 1837-21 Nov.1857 covered news in two counties not concentrating just on Bedfordshire until 1857) and not smaller more local districts, so though they would mention trials and prisoners you don't usually get any further detail about the men themselves then you get from the Quarter Sessions records.
Medical ship journals only tend to mention men who were ill on the journey (the convict I was following wasn't), but where nothing else survives they do give you some background to the voyage itself, if only of the illnesses the medical officer was treating. You also get the feel of handling a book that was on the same ship as your ancestor - this unfortunately does require a personal visit to TNA as it does for most of their records.
From the Tasmanian Record Office if you are trying to prove the identity of your convict where they survive these are very good records
CON14 & CON15 - Indents of male and female convicts
since they can mention other family members by name. However the other convict records are also extremely informative and interesting describing the person and their life as a convict in Tasmania which can in some cases be quite horrific listing frequent punishments.
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/guides/list/bg020
Regards
Valda
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Lincslass
RootsChat Senior
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Thanks Valda
I do tend to get A2A and the national Archives confused. Not difficult at my time of life. 
I have checked for Gaol records before in the Bucks RO and the only ones that survived are from the 1870's and 1891' to early 1900's when it was a womens prison.
The Bucks Herald and the Bucks Gazette started 1829 and 1832 so it may well be worth a look for end of September to mid Oct 1833 to see if there is anything mentioned like an age which I think the OP is looking for. The record at the National Archives states that John Dawes alias John Knight was of Aylesbury so if I can pick up on an age, I may be able to back track. Though I as I am sure you are aware, just because he was living in Aylesbury in 1833, does not mean he was born there. He could have been born anywhere.
Jo
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Valda
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Jo
The Buckinghamshire calendar of prisoners for 1834 certainly give prisoners ages because I have notes on a prisoner taken from that year (October) which lists him as 18. They may not always give an age for each prisoner. The same man was tried again in 1836 and transported. The 1836 calendar mentions a previous conviction. The Bucks Gazette in 1836 while mentioning the trial (nothing you couldn't get from the quarter sessions) did not mention his age, but the Bucks Herald of January 1836, did - 19. I think the newspapers source for ages could be the printed calendars.
I also have notes taken from the Chaplain's character book for 1859 from Aylesbury prison (QAG 28). They are very detailed - more so than many later prison registers I have seen. I have almost a page of notes on a prisoner from that source.
Regards
Valda
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Lincslass
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I wonder when I asked about prisoners in Aylesbury, they did not mention the calendars? Maybe they ar in the dark as they just led me to the prison listings and what was available. No mention of any calendars at all. I will certainly ask when I go on Tuesday.
Many thanks again
Jo
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Lincslass
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I am finding this very strange Valda, I have searched and seen lots of "Calendar of prisoners" but find none for Aylesbury which was the main prison for Bucks, though I understand the kids were sent to Hertfordshire. Neither can I find any for Bucks in general. Though I see they give an example of it on the Bucks Archives website which suggests there is one. I will certainly ask when I go on Tuesday. Maybe I can find someone who knows what they are doing
Jo
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Valda
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I've searched through the Calendars of Prisoners at Buckinghamshire Record Office (calendars are county calendars because they are the lists of prisoners standing trial at the quarter sessions (or Assizes) - they can be either post trial calendars or pre trial). I have extracted information from the Buckinghamshire calendars on various prisoners, though I was only interested in the period of the first half of the C19th.
From the Buckinghamshire Record Office online teaching pack on Victorian crime and punishment
'Calendar of Prisoners
The Calendar of Prisoners records all details of prisoners standing trial at the Quarter Sessions. Most of the details are repeated in the Gaol Receiving book, but it does detail the items stolen: 1 silver watch, 1brass watchchain, 1 locket, 1 German silver watch chain, and 1 watch key, value 30s, the property of Thomas Mosley, at Newport Pagnell, on the 14th December 1872. Albert’s mother, Mary, was sentenced to 3 months hard labour at Aylesbury.
(CBS Ref BC 5/1)'
Warwickshire Record Office has its Calendar of Prisoners indexed and online
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/3C3BECFC9AF8FC7B80256E7E0056B9FE
Regards
Valda
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Lincslass
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Valda
I would be very interested where you obtained early prison records for Bucks in 19th C from, as I have not seen any and as I posted on the Aylesbury Gaol site I can only find the receiving books for the 1870's and prisoner appearances from Aug 1891 to 1901 (all females) . If you can give me a pointer, I can ask when I go as they claim to have shown me all prison records which are available at the Archives office.
Many thanks
Jo
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Valda
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I gave the reference in my previous message
Chaplain's character book from Aylesbury prison
(QAG 28)
I don't know the dates covered from memory. The prisoner I have detailed notes on was there in 1859 and served 9 months.
The information given is as detailed as my knowing his actual cell number (19) his name, residence and place of birth, his last employment and wages, whether he was married and had children, his circumstances, whether he ever had any goods in pawn or was in recipient of parish relief, the circumstances of his parents, whether he was born in wedlock, if his parents were criminal, his religion and the number of times he regularly attended church, his education and whether he was able to read and write etc.
Some of the most detailed information on a prisoner I've gleaned from viewing numerous prison registers - mostly held at The National Archives.
The National Archives also hold the prison register for Aylesbury gaol 1864-1865 in HO23/1 (HO = Home Office records)
I always check through record offices catalogues for the area I am interested in to get a feel for the record coverage, as well as asking the advice of the archivists as they tend to have their specialisms and also range in experience.
Criminal records tend to be less well used by family researchers, but such records (asylum records are also under used) can be extremely interesting and informative.
Regards
Valda
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