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Author Topic: A change of SEX!  (Read 1349 times)
DJH
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
A change of SEX!
« on: Friday 18 May 07 16:36 BST (UK) »
My GGrandmother, Eliza Hartshorn, was born in 1865 at Hookagate, Brace Meole. Her father was William, a coal miner and her mother was Sarah Ann (formerly Jones).
In the 1871 Census, William is living with Sarah Ann at Brace Meole with ELIJAH, their SON born at Hookagate and aged 5 years!
In the 1881 Census, ELIJAH is now 15 and a Farm labourer!
What happened to ELIZA?
Help needed urgently please.
David Embarrassed
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meles
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #1 on: Friday 18 May 07 16:50 BST (UK) »
My guess would be that the census enumerators mis-heard and put down Eliza as Elijah. But twice...?  Undecided

Could there have been twins?

meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk
Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk
Harrison: London; Pollock
Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx
Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk
Rogers: London; Bartlett: London
Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants
Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
DJH
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #2 on: Friday 18 May 07 16:58 BST (UK) »
Thank you Meles,
That is what I wondered. However, I am a twin and I know today that the actual time of birth is put on twins birth certificates. Perhaps this didn't happen in 1865.
I am totally at a loss as to where to look next.
David
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DJH
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #3 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:00 BST (UK) »
Is it possible that a girl could have be brought up as a boy until about 15 years old?
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meles
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #4 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:01 BST (UK) »
I've looked up FreeBMD and there is no Eliza or Elijah there....

Have you got a birth certificate?

meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk
Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk
Harrison: London; Pollock
Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx
Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk
Rogers: London; Bartlett: London
Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants
Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
toni*
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #5 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:02 BST (UK) »

i have a Colin in my tree on one census he is Colin and on another he is Coleen but luckily he is still down as son

maybe the parents put Eliza down as a boy to help out on the farm or soemthing, or maybe Eliza was elsewhere on the night of the census
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SMA is the biggest genetic killer of children under the age of 2 years
1 in 40 of you carry the gene that passes this conditon on
There is no current treatment
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DJH
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #6 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:06 BST (UK) »
I do have Eliza's birth certificate. Would it be possible to fool the Registrar. Do you have to have the baby with you when it is registered?
David
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meles
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #7 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:07 BST (UK) »
No, but whilst the enumerator might have been in a bit of a hurry, the Registrar would have got the right details. I hope!

meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk
Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk
Harrison: London; Pollock
Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx
Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk
Rogers: London; Bartlett: London
Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants
Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
DJH
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #8 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:08 BST (UK) »
Thanks Toni*,
"elsewhere"? Do you mean staying somewhere else or do you mean not being included on the Census?
David
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #9 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:09 BST (UK) »
Apologies if this is a daft question, but are you sure it's the right family?  When did your Eliza marry, because Elijah is still unmarried and living with his parents in 1901....

RG13; Piece: 2541; Folio: 36; Page: 5
Hookagate, Atcham
William Hartshorn - Head - 62 - Coal Miner - Birmingham
Sarah Ann Hartshorn - Wife - 55 - Pontesbury
Elijah Hartshorn - Son - 35 - Cow [...] - Hookagate
William Hartshorn - Son - 26 - Coal Miner - Hookagate
Rachel Hartshorn - Dau - 15 - Hookagate

Rambler
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ANT: Nesbit, Potts      
CHS: Gosling, Hinton, Johnson, Marsland, Sorton      
LAN: Barlow, Jackson, James, Potts, Sorton
MAY: Caulfield, Griffin      
SAL/STS: Goodwin, Gregory      
SOM: Dowding, James, Jones

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
pete edwards
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #10 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:11 BST (UK) »
1841 census Meole brace, Shrewsbury, place Hook a gate,

Elijah     Hartshorn         miner     45         y
Elizabeth      "                              40          y
Emma           "                              10          y
Hanna           "                              2            y
Jane             "                              14          y
John             "                              12           y
Rebecca       "                               8            y
WILLIAM      "                                1           y


ho107 , piece 910. folio 33, page 6.

Dont know If you got this already?

Pete Smiley Smiley
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Edwards, mainly Cound, Frodesely, Acton Burnell. Pitchford. and surrounding villages, Shropshire, /  Rowe, Cound, / Littlehales, Berrington, Shropshire / Radford, Dublin, /   Maguire, Acton Burnell, /  Rudge, Frodesely, /
DJH
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #11 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:12 BST (UK) »
Thanks Rambler.
That makes it more complicated.
Could there be another William AND Sarah Ann? How would I find them?
You see, Eliza doesn't seem to feature in the Census of 1871 when she would have been 6 years nor in the 1881 Census.
David
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DJH
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #12 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:14 BST (UK) »
Thanks pete,
I have seen this but as you will see I could be looking at the wrong William! I can't find another though.
Here's a question:
If someone else gave birth to Eliza, would this William and Sarah Ann get away with registering her as their baby but not keeping it with them?
David
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toni*
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #13 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:19 BST (UK) »
I meant somewhere else on the night of the census working somewhere or maybe she was travelling abroad.

it was usual for people to name the children after themselves or their parents so Elijah after Williams father and Eliza after his mother.

if someone else gave birth to the child then her parents name would be different on the birth certificate which i take it are not as you have the birth certificate.

have you only looked on Freebmd? as this is not complete Ancestry have the full list but ti is very time consuming trawling through all the pages.
Logged
Spinal Muscular Atrophy (SMA) is a neuromuscular condition causing weakness of the muscles.
SMA is the biggest genetic killer of children under the age of 2 years
1 in 40 of you carry the gene that passes this conditon on
There is no current treatment
JTSMA.ORG.UK  FSMA.ORG  PROJECTCURESMA.ORG

Tomorrow is too late

Holman - Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj - Kiev Ukraine, Bentley - Bradford/Leicester, Taylor - Kent/Sussex, Punnett - Sussex, Richards - Leicester, Vinton - Cornwall, Beer - Devon
Manchester Rambler
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Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #14 on: Friday 18 May 07 17:23 BST (UK) »
As you have the names of Eliza's parents from her birth cert, I would suggest getting their marriage cert to check William's age, and help locate him on census:

Marriages Dec 1864
HARTSHORN    William       
JONES    Sarah Anne
Atcham 6a 1304   

It's possible William died young, and Sarah re-married, on which case Eliza might be listed under her step-father's name.

I'll have another look at censuses....

Rambler
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ANT: Nesbit, Potts      
CHS: Gosling, Hinton, Johnson, Marsland, Sorton      
LAN: Barlow, Jackson, James, Potts, Sorton
MAY: Caulfield, Griffin      
SAL/STS: Goodwin, Gregory      
SOM: Dowding, James, Jones

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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