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Topic: Birth lookup - Lem(m)ington c 1761 (Read 188 times)
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Ruskie
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just taking a punt here and wondering if anyone can find a birth for me. I am unable to access the NDFHS links for some reason.
I am looking for the birth/baptism of Ralph Spooner "native of Lemmington" (unsure if two M's or one M). His wife was christened in 1761 so possibly looking in the same timeframe for Ralph.
Don't know if this helps, but Ralph was married in Earsdon by North Shields and all/most of his children were christened there.
Now I have looked on Genuki and got totally confused (no surprise there) as there appears to be a Lemington and a Lemmington. Lemington refers you to Newburn for Methodist parishes and churches. What is the C of E parish church for Lem(m)ington? Is it St Michael and All Angels? Anyway, if anyone has any baptism records for any likely churches, I would be really grateful for a lookup.
Any help finding anything about Ralph would be wonderful! Thanks.
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Michael Dixon
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Ruskie,
A quick response on the topic of " parish".
In the days where we are researching... a "parish" is a unit of land/territory, both ecclesiastic and geographic..
Parishes were sub-divisions of a county.
Each parish consisted of a number of "Townships" ( a misleading term , as it did not refer to "towns" at all! )
Now all this "admin" was run by the "established church of the land" = Church of England = Anglican.
Churches of other religious denominations ( referred to as Non-Conformists or Dissenters) lay within these C of E parishes but they just did not refer to themselves as a "parish".
I know more about Catholic history than Methodist etc... but I know the Catholics went to lenths to reassure the C o E that they were no longer a threat ( remember the Gunpowder Plot) to the established church. So did not call their congregation a parish and deliberately dedicated their churches to saints different from the saints used by C o E.
To the point Michael....quickly .. OK.
Lemington ( nobody gets hanged for variations of place names) lay within the Parish of Newburn.
In those days, one C of E church per parish. Newburn Parish Church was dedicated to "St Michael and All Angels". So any Anglican Bapt/Marr/Bur happening within the territory of the Parish of Newburn, would have been "done" at the church of St M " All Angels".
Folk of other denominations would have just gone to the nearest church of their religion, either within or outside the "parish". In mid 1700s I do not think there were any "non-conformist" churches within the Newburn parish.
I fibbed at line one... when I said "quick" !
And before you in Australia, complain how complicated all this is... be aware that natives here find it complicated, because they are "contaminated" by modern-day places, where religion plays little part in the "admin" of life.
Enough already.
Michael
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Names.
GALLAGHER ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
ENGLAND ( Counties of Northumberland & Durham)
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DIXON
ENGLAND (Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle)
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for that explanation Michael.
I understand ... I think ... you did it explain it very clearly.
At least there IS only one Lem(m)ington - that makes life easier.
And I got the church right then - it is St Michael and All Angels".
It is very educational all this family history. I learn something new every day!
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Michael Dixon
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Ruskie,
I popped into Newcastle City Library (Local and Fam History Section) today. A massive 2 miles away !
Rather than "full" Parish Records ( like the appropriate County Records Offices) the library has shelffulls of transcriptions.
Would you believe it... one volume covers Newburn Parish ( St Michael ans All Angels) bapts from 1659 to 1751. Next volume goes from1764 to 1812.
I looked around both the edges, but found no Spooners. Probably in missing era !
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In Earsdon Parish records I saw his marriage to Susanna Leighton, 14 Feb 1778, " both of this parish"
Married by Vicar W.Warkman. Witnesses were John Elstob and Adam Leighton.
John was a "serial" witness, and I think connected to the church, rather than the families.
In the Earsdon ( St Albans) baptisms I saw bapts of
*Ralph, bpt 7/11 1790, "near Hartley"
*Sarah Annb 4/10/1794, bpt 2/11/1794
*Peter Snowdon Spooner 3rd son of Ralph, pitman, native of Lemington and Susanna, native of Birtley (Co) Durham
( there was a Birtley Parish in Northumberland)
And a burial ??
Earsdon Parish, Ralph Spooner buried 6 Aug 1813, 62 years of age.
If he is yours it "indicates" he was born circa 1751 ( but age at seath/burial are usually the most inaccurate)
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Michael Dixon
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Names.
GALLAGHER ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
ENGLAND ( Counties of Northumberland & Durham)
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DIXON
ENGLAND (Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle)
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Ruskie
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Oh, you're a real gem St Michael! Thank you for going to all that trouble for me. You'd better watch it though, now we know where you live there may be more requests for lookups!
Such a shame about those missing years - that is possibly where Ralph's birth is hiding. That MAY be his death you found. Do you think the County RO might have the missing years or may they be just missing off the face of the earth? Just out of curiosity ... in your searches did you notice many Ralph Spooners? Just wondering if I found one if he is likely to be mine?
Thank you, I do have those Spooner births (there are more too) but there is always the odd extra little snippet that helps - like Ralph "near Hartley" - I didn't have that. The marriage witness of Adam Spooner helps - Susanna has a brother Adam and father Adam and later names a son Adam. So it all fits in nicely.
Now I knew that Peter's middle name was Snowdon and thought it was some kindof made up middle name, but yesterday when trawling through some Northumberland and Durham marriages, I noticed that it was quite a popular surname in the area. This led me to wonder if this surname came from Ralph's mother/grandmother perhaps. Peter Snowdon Spooner and his second wife name a child Peter Snowdon, so something new to pursue.
I really appreciate all the help - a million thanks.
Must dash now - I'm off to our Archives to do a lookup for someone  .
PS. Have you suffered in the recent downpours in the area? The floods were reported on our news here.
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Michael Dixon
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Ruskie,
I browsed quite a few different Parish Records today, and the only Spooners were yours, yours the only Ralph.
The surname is not a northern name, say, like my Dixon. Rooted in counties Suffolk, Norfolk and Sussex. The 1094th most common surname in GB
Leighton is a northern names, both east and west and strong in east of Scotland. (1406th).
( You too can be a surname expert... see the Surname Profiler web site... google for it, me no techie... but it only allows two snapshots, for 1881 and 1998)
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The full Newburn PRs will be available in both Northumberland County Record Office ( although Newburn is no longer in Northumberland... another time ! ) and Tyne & Wear Archives ( which is the equivalent of a CRO) which sort of covers Tyne & Wear area, that Newburn now lies in.
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Earsdon Parish ( church dedicated to St Albans) was made up of 8 sub-parish territories called townships. One of these townships was Hartley. Communities within the Hartley Township included the hamlet of Hartley and the village of Seaton Sluice ( which, before it got it's sluice, was called Hartley Haven or Hartley Harbour. Main occupations in this area was coalmining and glassmaking.
Web site > communities.northumberland.gov.uk < go to "Seaton Sluice" to read Hartley history, see old photos, see old maps and lots more.
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If Ralph and Susanna were like many people of the day, following the "English Naming Pattern" ( google for it LOL )
they would have callled their first son after Ralp's dad, 2nd son after Susanna's dad. So Adam would have been name of their second son. Third son got his dad's name = Ralph , unless that had used for previous children, under an earlier "rule". $th son got his dad's eldest brother's name. Dtrs vice versa.. i.e first dtr after Susanna's mother, second after Ralph's mother et seq.
The "classic" ENP did not include conventios for middle names, but several families threw in wives etc nee names
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Yes, many heavy showers here in Newcastle area, but mostly on high ground, so dry in my bed, so far. But many areas have suffered badly.
The Bishop of Carlisle says the bad weather is God paying us back for ignoring the teachings of the bible and passing pro-gay legislation and lots more misdeeds.... so you lot in OZ had better watch out !
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Michael Dixon
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Names.
GALLAGHER ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
ENGLAND ( Counties of Northumberland & Durham)
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DIXON
ENGLAND (Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle)
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you Michael.
Yes, I regularly use Surname Profiler. When I discover a new name in the "tree" Surname Profiler is one of my first ports of call. I did notice the distribution of the Spooner name on SP and also in the general BMD searches.
At least I have somewhere to search for those missing Newburn PR's. That's a relief. If I have exact dates eg for a marriage I don't mind asking people to do lookups but if I have no idea of dates as is the case with the birth of Ralph, then I don't feel comfortable asking people to do this much work on my behalf.
I will check out the Nortumberland communities site you recommend. I have googled Hartley, and found plenty about New Hartley and the mining disaster.
I will look at the naming pattern of this family to see if I can make sense of it. I've never been lucky enough to find a family naming pattern - or maybe I just haven't noticed one yet. Most of mine are just called William.
I'm pleased to hear you're on dry land. Please tell the Bishop that the South East Queenslanders have been extremely evil lately and can we have some rain too please God.
Thanks again to you St Michael!
PS. Are you officially a Geordie?
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Michael Dixon
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Ruskie,
I noticed on one of your messages ( on Leighton, I think) that you referred to parish of birth been Birtley Northumberland !. The parish record I saw yesterday recorded that Susanna was a native of Birtley in Co Durham, not NBL.
Don't shout, but New Hartley of the Pit Disaster is different to Hartley ( sometimes now called Old Hartley")
New Hartley was only green fields up to 1845, before the Hestor Pit was "sunk".
(Old) Hartley lay within the Hartley Township ( one of the eight that made up Earsdon Parish.
New Hartley was born within the Seaton Delaval Township of Earson Parish.
When pits were established on green field sites, the community that grew up there, sort of took the name of the mine or the name of the mine company, as the name of the community.
Stop me ! Part of the town of Blyth (NBL) is called "The Isabella" or even "The Bella", after the name of a mine that was established and called after the owners wife ? or dtr.
My g/f was born in New Hartley in 1875 ( to Irish immigrants) but 1881 and 1891 censuses has him born in/at Earsdon ( enumerators recorded "parish of birth rather than "place of birth" )
I really don't know whether I am an official Geordie or not !. You tell me. I live in Newcastle now, but was born in pit village of Bebside, 3 miles east of Blyth, which lies on the coast about 12 miles north-east of Newcastle ?
Michael Dixon
native of miners hovel, no WC. water or electricity, in..
Bebside Colliery Village, in the Township of
Cowpen, in the Parish of
Horton, in the County of
Northumberland.
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Names.
GALLAGHER ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
ENGLAND ( Counties of Northumberland & Durham)
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DIXON
ENGLAND (Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle)
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Oh dear! (I'd better watch my language on here) - I am still understanding you - I think! If you don't stop explaining I'll send you down the library for another lookup!
Birtley in DURHAM! Oh dear (again)!Well, actually that quite makes sense as I THINK Susanna's parents married in Washington in 1764 (3 years after her birth? ). So does Susanna being born in Birtley make sense? Think I got the Northumberland from the IGI. I THINK her siblings all seem to be chr in Earsdon by Nth Shields. Maybe the family moved there.
I THINK Susanna's mother was Catherine Ridley poss chr Sunderland. It kindof seem feasible - no proof yet of course  .
I may not have been clear but I do know that Hartley and New Hartley are different places. I did read about the pits at New Hartley and it was basically a "new town" of the era with the whole town built around the mine. And I read some more about it today on the site you recommended. So any Hartley before 1845 is the original Hartley (Old Hartley)? Can you recommend any photos of old Hartley? When I googled all I got was New Hartley.
While I think of it I also googled English naming patterns and printed one out. Doesn't seem to fit in with my lot though.
Yes, Michael Dixon you are a Geordie! (Especially if you have the accent ) Origin of the word Geordie unknown - a few theories - started with the coal miners, but a broader umbrella these days. I read something about it the other day.
Your last few lines remind me of a Monty Python sketch ...
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Michael Dixon
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Today, a mention of Birtley would make folk, including Northumbrians from the south of the county, think of the Co Durham Birtley.
I, a south-east Northumbrian, had never heard of the Birtley in NBL, until I got into family treeing.
Birtley Co Durham, has at times been within the territory of Chester-le-Street parish, and yes close enough to Washington parish.
Why IGI say " Earsdon by North Shields ?. OK North Shields is near enough to Earsdon, but so is Tynemouth had more "sway" than North Shields, In fact Earsdon had enough sway to be able to "stand alone"
Maybe because there is another Earsdon in rural Northumberland.. Ayyeeeiii ! But not a parish !
The Northumberland Communities site... has good photos of Seaton Sluice, but none ( I think ) of old Hartley.... but to be honest ( hope here I do not upset any old old Hartleyans) I don't think the community of Hartley had any features other than dwellings. All the "action" was in Hartley Harbour, which became Seaton Sluice.
In the Seaton Sluice section, click on Printed Material and get into the 1834 Trade Directory.. explanation on "Old" Hartley ( but not 100% accurate) See the pub, Delaval's Arms... Still standing today as The Delaval Arms, fighting for it's life against plans to demolish itfor housing. Google it. This pub is in Hartley. See also Waterford Arms, in Seaton Sluice. Stands today, renowned as pub for good fish dinners.
Also in the Manuscript section you will see items and surnames of militia, men who loaned carts (against invasions ! ) etc.
I could be wrong here but I think the "line" that divided Seaton Sluice from old Hartley, is the line that today divides Northumberland from North Tyneside ( a sort of modern entity that is both county and borough combined.. I won't go there)
Hartley Pit Disaster. Fatalities included a John and Duncan Gallagher, and their 12 yr old nephew, James Tierney, who was "called" Gallagher. I researched this family for many months, thinking they were mine . Wrong !.
Michael Dixon
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Names.
GALLAGHER ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
ENGLAND ( Counties of Northumberland & Durham)
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DIXON
ENGLAND (Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle)
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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All very interesting - thanks. I did have to read it twice I might add. I will look at the Northumbrian site again - you are right, I didn't see any photos of Old Hartley on there. I might google "Old Hartley" and see what comes up.
(Gee, that IS an unfortunate name Seaton Sluice). I think all this confusion comes with the regular "boundary"/ parish etc changes in the area - even in recent times. I suppose some areas of Britain have "suffered" these changes more than others.
I believe I can identify one Spooner who died in the Eppleton Colliery ("by a fall of stones") in 1868. I think there might be some Spooners who died in the Hartley Disaster too, but I haven't identified them yet.
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Michael Dixon
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Ruskie,
good news .. sort of.. no Spooners among the 204 fatalities of (New) Hartley pit disaster.
On Unfortunate Names..
My Malley ggm, in New Hartley, lived in a 3 home terrace called just " Pit Heap"
MD
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Names.
GALLAGHER ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
ENGLAND ( Counties of Northumberland & Durham)
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DIXON
ENGLAND (Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle)
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Michael, I just checked the Hartley names and you're right - no Spooners. There are some killed at various other mines. See here (I really like this site):
http://www.dmm.org.uk/names/names_sp.htm
Did any of your ancestors lose their lives in mining accidents? There can't be many families who didn't lose someone.
Oh no, "pit heap" that's awful - poor ggm.
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Ruskie
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Posts: 3063
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Oh dear .... thank you sharmor. Maybe that's how I got the idea there were two? Luckily Michael noted that mine was Durham which is good - or I'd be even MORE confused. Out of curiosity, I'm off to google again .....
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« Last Edit: Saturday 07 July 07 00:36 BST (UK) by Ruskie »
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