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Topic: The mystery and the monkey (can you help identify?) (Read 2120 times)
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AndrewMartin
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Posts: 189
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In my collection of old photographs is a picture of my Gt Gt Grandfather, James Martin (1851-1934), with a group of men... and a monkey.
It's a fascinating photo (not least as some of the faces are quite terrifying and some of the people in the foreground look like understudies for The Seven Dwarves!) but also because I have no idea what was going on, that was important enough to warrant a photo being taken.
Here's a link to the photo: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=726492313&size=l
Go ahead and download it or zoom in on it to have a better look if needed.
I have read the word "Albert" on their caps and they have ribbons attached to the caps too, so i'm guessing its some special occasion. My Gt Gt Grandfather was a platelayer for most of his years and I suspect that this has something to do with the railways and/or a Royal visit?
..but can anyone shed some/any better informed light on this mysterious photo.
Interesting also to see a pet monkey on my Gt Gt Grandfather's shoulder - particularly as my own father hates them!
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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Gillg
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Andrew
What a brilliant photo! But what a collection of different outfits. As you say, the central group look like railwaymen. Then there are the seven, or rather five dwarf lookalikes, but the chaps in shiny boater-shaped hats (made of tarred canvas or painted, I believe) with ribbons are surely sailors, which could explain the foreign aspect of some of them, and also the monkey. There are letters on the front of the sweaters of both "sailors" and "dwarves", which I can't make out, even if I enlarge the photo. Can you?
To be honest, it reminds me of photos I have from a similar period showing concerts put on by my gt-grandparents' church, where much attention was paid to costumes. It's just that the railwaymen's outfits look so lived-in that they must be genuine. And maybe Price Albert was paying a Royal Visit and the boater hats were an opportunity to pay tribute to him. Where was the photo taken?
Was your father frightened by that same monkey or a picture of it at a tender age, perhaps? Not joking, but early trauma can have a long-lasting effect.
Regards,
Gill
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFAIREY/FAIRY/FAREY, CHURCH from Easton, Ellington, Eynesbury, Gt Catworth, Huntingdon, Spaldwick, Hunts; Burnley, Lancs; New Zealand, Australia & US. HURST, BOLTON, BUTTERWORTH, ADAMSON, WILD from Milnrow, Newhey, Oldham & Rochdale, Lancs. |
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AndrewMartin
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There are letters on the front of the sweaters of both "sailors" and "dwarves", which I can't make out, even if I enlarge the photo. Can you?
Well spotted, somehow i hadnt spotted that before. I've just zoomed right in over a number of them and it appears that the letters read "R.T.V.C" or that last letter might be and "O".
Putting "R.T.V.C" into Google gives me www.rtvc.gov.co - a Colombian television site, which it clearly wasn't from!
To be honest, it reminds me of photos I have from a similar period showing concerts put on by my gt-grandparents' church, where much attention was paid to costumes. It's just that the railwaymen's outfits look so lived-in that they must be genuine. And maybe Price Albert was paying a Royal Visit and the boater hats were an opportunity to pay tribute to him. Where was the photo taken?
Was your father frightened by that same monkey or a picture of it at a tender age, perhaps? Not joking, but early trauma can have a long-lasting effect.
No, i think the dislike for primates came from watching too many David Attenborough programmes!
I have considered sailors or some kind of performance... but i'm not sure.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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Gillg
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Then there's the Richmond Trailblazers Volkssport Club of British Columbia, or the River Thames Visitor Centre....  Sorry, I love acronyms (or should I say initialisms, since you can't pronounce RTVC as a word - just discovered the distinction!)
Seriously, the R could stand for Royal or Railwaymen('s), obviously, T something to with Trains or Transport and the C or O for Club or Organisation. Or could the last letter possibly be a U for Union? V possibly Victorian. Don't suppose they all received the Victoria Cross. It must have been a large organisation to have its own sweaters, on which the initials were probably woven or embroidered, as opposed to modern printed ones. If you knew where the photo was taken, it might provide one of the letters.
The whole shape of the photo is very dramatic, and your gt-gt-grandfather must have been the most important person on it, standing at the pinnacle of the group with that monkey on his shoulder!
But I'm rabbiting on and not being very helpful. I wonder if our Occupation Interest board would bring any suggestions.
Regards,
Gill
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukFAIREY/FAIRY/FAREY, CHURCH from Easton, Ellington, Eynesbury, Gt Catworth, Huntingdon, Spaldwick, Hunts; Burnley, Lancs; New Zealand, Australia & US. HURST, BOLTON, BUTTERWORTH, ADAMSON, WILD from Milnrow, Newhey, Oldham & Rochdale, Lancs. |
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goldy
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Have you tried asking the Railway museum at York if they know anything about the photo? it's worth a try.
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AndrewMartin
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Have you tried asking the Railway museum at York if they know anything about the photo? it's worth a try.
That's a good idea - i havent asked them but i shall do now! Thanks 
My gt gt grandfather didnt receive any medals (that i've found). His only occupation was as a Railway Platelayer, although, from the picture it might suggest that he was something like a Station Master. His family did live in a railway gatehouse out in the Little Downham fenland (just North West of of Ely).I wonder if our Occupation Interest board would bring any suggestions.
Regards,
Gill
I'll have a look for that too... I'm sure that 'we' can get to the bottom of this photo as it has bugged me over the years.
Thanks everyone
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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Dave Francis
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Cornelius Fisk Goodwin (1880-1961)
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Hi Andrew
Some thoughts...
1. The picture evidently wasn't taken in a photographer's studio - think how high the ceiling would have to be. Nor do I think it's a stage set. The "cast" are standing/sitting on a carpet which appears to have been laid on grass. So I think it's been taken outdoors - simply because of the number of people involved - and the photographer used a large backdrop to help frame the composition. (At least, I think it's a backdrop - it doesn't look like the wall of a building.)
2. Instinct tells me this isn't a stage production. The clothing looks a bit too authentic and, well, uniform. "RTVC" seems an unnecessary detail for stage costumes and having a monkey as a stage-prop also seems a little unlikely.
3. Instinct also tells me that the sailors are visiting merchant seamen - perhaps the "dwarves" are ordinary seamen and the others are higher rank. The "C" in "RTVC" would therefore be "Company" and the whole might be something like "R_____ Trading Vessels Company." However, Little Downham is a little too far inland for my liking - perhaps the picture was taken at Kings Lynn?
4. The young lad at the the front doesn't appear to be a member of the crew - he's got the cap, but is not appropriately dressed. Perhaps he is the son of one of the railwaymen? And as for the chap seated behind him to his left....what is going on here? 
5. You haven't actually identified your ancestor. Is he the chap at the back with the monkey? If not, my gut feeling is that he is american and possibly the captain?
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSurnames include: FRANCIS in Glamorgan / LANWORN in Monmouth / BLACKMAN, RUSSELL in Sussex / KEARSEY, BARLTROP in Essex / TOOKEY in Leicestershire / LASHMORE in London and Kent / GOODWIN, PASQUE, ATTOE, FISK, QUINTON, RUFFLES, CULLINGFORD and others in Suffolk / MAYOSS anywhere anytime! / GILMORE in Belfast |
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Little Nell
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Are you sure that it is a V? Might it be Y so that it is R............. T.............Yacht Club? I think they are sailors, or fishermen except the footwear looks too polished! And maybe they are not British. The woolly hats don't look right for British.
A mystery indeed...........
Nell
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JAP
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You mentioned that GGGpa (or at least his family?) lived in Little Downham ...
A Google finds that there is a Little Downham Local History and Archive Group.
Worth contacting them?
See:
http://www.littledownham.net/archive%20group/index.shtml
There is an email contact address.
Or any other local history groups where your GGGpa lived ...
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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AndrewMartin
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You mentioned that GGGpa (or at least his family?) lived in Little Downham ... A Google finds that there is a Little Downham Local History and Archive Group. Worth contacting them? See: http://www.littledownham.net/archive%20group/index.shtmlThere is an email contact address. Or any other local history groups where your GGGpa lived ... JAP
Thanks for that - i'm sure that they will be very useful and interested in my research as my family has tended to stay in Downham for generations.
Their site must be new as i'm sure i would have spotted them before.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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AndrewMartin
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Hello,
I've got an update - I emailed the National Railway Museum this morning and they have just got back to me with the following:
Thank-you for your enquiry, having consulted with a number of my colleagues we are of the opinion that the photograph is of a group of sailors, rather than railwaymen. I have contacted the Royal Naval Museum and they inform me that there were two vessels of which may fit. “Albert” an ironclad troopship 1840-43, and “Albert” a Gun Vessel 1883-1896.
The initials on the jerseys may indicate that the men are training corps volunteers although this is an educated guess.
I wonder if that's any nearer the truth?
In the meantime, I'll get on to the Little Downham group.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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bedfordshire boy
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"Crew members of the gunboat Albert pose for a photograph after successfully putting down an uprising by natives of Little Downham"
I can just imagine the newspaper headline!
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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goldy
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Ooh "Training corps volunters" sounds good. Platelayers would work on an Iron clad ship wouldn't they. sounds very promising to me.
Moderator comment: please be aware that there are two threads on this topic
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 10 July 07 20:08 BST (UK) by Arranroots »
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AndrewMartin
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"Crew members of the gunboat Albert pose for a photograph after successfully putting down an uprising by natives of Little Downham"
I can just imagine the newspaper headline!
David
hahaha... yes, that WOULD be a headline.. however, illiteracy might have helped lose that piece of news.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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