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Topic: JOHNSON - Ware - Help Please. (Read 586 times)
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roaminmamma
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Posts: 18
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am researching my 3 grt Grandfathers family of Johnson in Herts Ware.
I have the Census for 1841 & 1851 his name was:
Joseph Johnson, his wife was Abigail johnson
They were married on 1.11.1816 in Ware the church I am not sure of.
Joseph died of Renal Abscess in 1846 and was buried in St mary the virgin in ware.
I have his death certificate and have emailed the church who have said as he died in the Union workhouse he will have no head stone as he had no money.
He was a Bargeman in his working life and I am awaiting a reply from the proiry museum concerning the bargemen.
I am planning a visit to Ware in mid October for a week to do some research and visit the places such as Crib street where they lived. Also to visit the church and the local archives, my problem is I have searched the surname lists and find him nowhere, as I cannot get an index number I cannot order a certificate of their marriage. I cannot order the childrens birth certs as the records only start from 1837, so I am hoping that a visit to herts will uncover some information for me.
There is no trace of Joseph in the census before or after 1841 and I can only think that he and Abigail lived apart.
Can you tell me if there are any records held at the church or are they all at the local History library, I have found a marriage database online but it only takes credit cards and not debit cards so I cannot acsess it.
I would be extremely gratefulany advice you could give me.
many thanks
Chrissy
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« Last Edit: Monday 13 August 07 17:01 BST (UK) by Rick »
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roaminmamma
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you Lady Di I and Pat are in touch as I met my grandfathers Sisters Grandchild on here last year we are researching the same Family and Patrish is very kindly helping both of us, many thanks for the thought.
Chrissy
xx
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linmey
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My Grandfather George Burns. Seaforth Highlanders!
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Hi Chrissy,
Ware museum has been closed for a few months for building work etc and I am not sure if they are open again yet. I can check on that for you but that is perhaps why you havnt heard anything from them. They were due to reopen again in June but these things often take longer than originally planned dont they!!
Linda.
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Reynolds, Woodham, Payne, Wilmott, Hart, Richardson, Packwood, Tandy, Dexter - Bedfordshire. Chamberlain and Wagstaff- Hunts. Freeman, Cheney, Cox- Northants. Burns, Muter, Cobban, Hossack, Strachan, Moonlight. Lanarkshire, Ross and Cromarty and Kincardineshire. Garvey- Ireland. Census Information Is Crown Copyright From-- www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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roaminmamma
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Oh yes please do Linmey as when I visit I would like to research but if that is impossible I would want to leave it till I can sight see and research, many thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Chrissy
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linmey
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My Grandfather George Burns. Seaforth Highlanders!
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Thats ok Chrissy, I will get back to you!
Linda.
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Reynolds, Woodham, Payne, Wilmott, Hart, Richardson, Packwood, Tandy, Dexter - Bedfordshire. Chamberlain and Wagstaff- Hunts. Freeman, Cheney, Cox- Northants. Burns, Muter, Cobban, Hossack, Strachan, Moonlight. Lanarkshire, Ross and Cromarty and Kincardineshire. Garvey- Ireland. Census Information Is Crown Copyright From-- www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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linmey
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My Grandfather George Burns. Seaforth Highlanders!
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Hope this helps!
http://www.waremuseum.org.uk/
Linda.
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Reynolds, Woodham, Payne, Wilmott, Hart, Richardson, Packwood, Tandy, Dexter - Bedfordshire. Chamberlain and Wagstaff- Hunts. Freeman, Cheney, Cox- Northants. Burns, Muter, Cobban, Hossack, Strachan, Moonlight. Lanarkshire, Ross and Cromarty and Kincardineshire. Garvey- Ireland. Census Information Is Crown Copyright From-- www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Valda
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Chrissy
'Joseph died of Renal Abscess in 1846 and was buried in St mary the virgin in ware.'
'There is no trace of Joseph in the census before or after 1841 and I can only think that he and Abigail lived apart.'
If you are only accessing censuses and parish records then if Joseph had died by 1846 he wouldn't be on the 1851 census. The 1841 census was the first census that has nationally survived and for which the names of all people in the household were taken. So from censuses you could only have Joseph and Abigail on the 1841 census.
If they married in 1816 at most Abigail would only have had 20 years max of childbearing years and probably less.
From these sources therefore I'm not sure where your statement comes about Joseph and Abigail living apart?
Joseph's occupation of bargeman might very well keep him away from home but that isn't the same as living apart.
'I have his death certificate and have emailed the church who have said as he died in the Union workhouse he will have no head stone as he had no money.'
In 1846 there were very few hospitals. Workhouse infirmaries were often the only place local people could obtain medical treatment. When the National Health service was formed in 1948 many of these workhouse infirmaries became National Health hospitals. So a death in a workhouse infirmary does not necessarily infer the person was a pauper but certainly they would not be of more independent means.
'I cannot get an index number I cannot order a certificate of their marriage.'
The marriage took place in 1816. Civil registration began 1st July 1837 so there is no marriage certificate only an entry in a parish register.
This website explains what information you will find in parish registers up to 1837. For the period you are interested in the 1816 marriage will only have their names, status (bachelor, spinster, widowed) what parish for the previous 3 weeks (the time it took to call the banns) was their abode, whether they were 21 or over - of full age, or whether they were a minor (in which case there may be more information since minors needed permission to marry). You will also be able to see whether they could sign their names or not and what were the names of the two witnesses.
http://www.kenaud.dircon.co.uk/parish.htm
This website explains what information you can find on certificates after the start of civil registration
http://www.kenaud.dircon.co.uk/parish.htm
The parish church in Ware was St Mary the Virgin. The records will be held at Hertfordshire Archives and local studies centre in Hertford. Most churches deposit their older records with the county record office.
http://www.hertsdirect.org/libsleisure/heritage1/HALS/
Form Hertfordshire Archives and local studies frequently asked questions
'Do I need to book in advance?
You do need to book in advance to look at original documents on a Tuesday evening or a Saturday morning.
At other times there is no need unless you are travelling a significant distance and will be using a microfilm reader or the internet.
Do I need to bring I.D?
If you are visiting Archives & Local Studies for the first time and wish to consult original documents, please bring with you two pieces of identification - one bearing your name and address and the other your signature. You can then be issued with a County Archive Research Network ticket, also known as a CARN ticket. '
The parish registers will be on microfilm so you may not need to look at any original documents but you may wish to make sure there is a microfilm reader available and book in advance.
'I have found a marriage database online but it only takes credit cards and not debit cards so I cannot acsess it.'
Is it a database or an index? An index is unlikely to have any more information than the IGI (International Genealogical Index) which is free and has the basic details for the marriage.
JOSEPH JOHNSON
ABIGAIL TINSLEY
Marriage: 01 NOV 1816 Ware, Hertford
Regards
Valda
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roaminmamma
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Thank you so much for that Valda, I will make sure that I phone them and tell them of my visit and what I would like to acsess.
I have been in discussions with ancestry over Abigails Death certificate and we discussed the 1841 census where she was put as Independant, they said that usually means someone on their own seperated, that is why I presumed they were living apart as otherwise they would have her down as married.
I am intending to visit the archives and the museum and I believe it is the priory that holds all the information and pictures of the Bargemen, I am going in October mid month and arming myself with all the information I want to find.
Many thanks for your help
Chrissy
xx
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Valda
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Posts: 6896
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The census column heading is
'Profession, trade, employment or of independent means'.
It is asking how the person obtained their living - Abigail has answered she was of independent means which could mean anything and probably means I'm not prepared to tell the census enumerator much of my business.
There is no question on the 1841 census which asks what status a person was - widowed, married single etc. so Abigail could not answer married to a question that was not on the form.
You could not put married in the occupation column. Marriage was not considered an occupation.
Woman more often left their occupation blank even if they were making a living often as a laundress or a dressmaker.
As Joseph was a bargeman you would expect his occupation to take him away from home as it would mean travelling on the canals. How often you can't tell. A census is only an extremely brief snapshot of who was staying in that household on that one night.
Of independent means does not usually mean separated - for a working class woman separated would usually mean close to destitute. It was an economic necessity for working class women in Victorian England to make a go of their marriages. Women whose hubands left them would be blamed by society for their inability to sustain their marriages.
Ancestry is an American company. I would be surprised if many of the people who work for it know a great deal about Victorian England mores of the 1840s.
Regards
Valda
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« Last Edit: Saturday 11 August 07 04:08 BST (UK) by Valda »
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roaminmamma
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you Valda for your help, I understand it better now
Chrissy
xx
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benzon
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Hi there
Sorry to disappoint but even if your ancestor wasn't buried in a public grave, you certainly wont find much in St Mary's churchyard now. It has all been grassed over and all the headstones removed around the perimeter. Very, very sad.
Some of my ancestors were also bargemen in Ware. Ware had a thriving malting industry (not that you would know that now) and the River Lea gave access to London. I also made an enquiry of Ware Museum some time back but their reply was in the negative which I found completely surprising in view of the fact that there were so many bargemen and maltsters in Ware in the 1800s.
Did also try to do a bit of research to establish who actually owned the barges that went up and down the Lea i.e. were there barge owners or were the barges owned by the malsters themselves. Never really drew any firm conclusions.
Valda may be right about the "of independent means" indicating that your ancestor didn't want the enumerator to know her circumstances as from what I know a lot of these bargemen lived in the very poorest areas of the town. Having said that though, Crib St does back onto the River Lea so perhaps your chap did actually own his own barge. On the other hand though, Kibes Lane is the next street along and it is described as one of the most poor and densely occupied areas of the town.
Sorry this is all a bit in the negative but I know only too well that the staff at HALS will be most helpful and you certainly should be able to find something in the parish records. Also enquire about the Poor Law records for Ware. I haven't actually looked at them and know some parish poor law records are more extensive than others, but if he was ill and unable to work, then he might have had to apply for parish relief. Just a thought.
Benz
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LAWRENCE - Gt Hormead, HUTCHIN - Albury, CARTER/CARTER CLAY - St Albans/Stanstead Abbotts, BURTON - Hoddesdon, WARD - Hunsdon, BEARD - Ware, LEE - Cripplegate/Glemsford
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roaminmamma
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Thank you so much Benz for your post have been unwell and just catching up with posts. I did write to the museum of the Bargemen but never received a reply, but I am not put off and will be going down there to see everything and see where my family lived, will keep you in touch with what I find.
Chrissy
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