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Topic: Spalding Marriages ??? Mystery?? (Read 625 times)
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Dale
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 874
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Hi
On the Free BMD I can see 3 marriages for a Rebecca WRIGHT. One is December Q 1861, the 2nd September Q 1863 & the last Dec Q 1881. The 1863 has no names except Rebecca's. All are in Spalding.
I'm having trouble helping a friend to sort out a few family history problems & wonder if there is a Marriage Index or whether perhaps any of these marriages are on the BVRI 1st or 2nd Edition?
I note the LDS library catalogue has these on microfilm 1542022, 1542023 . These films have to be ordered from Australia & can take ages so I'd be very grateful indeed for any help.
I suspect Rebecca 'married" several times !!
I have her daughter's Birth Certificate which says
1874 Sarah Jane Rate Wiseman girl Father William Wiseman Mother Rebecca Wiseman formerly Wright ... there is no "nee".
Reg District is Spalding.
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Ruskie
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Posts: 2866
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Dale,
"formerly" means the same as "nee".
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Dale
RootsChat Veteran
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Oh that's news! The ones I have are nee XYZ formerly ABC. Otr Vice Versa!
Thanks
Marlene
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
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1881 census RG11 3203 folio 61
120 Corne Road Spalding Lincolnshire
Mark Evans 42 Toddington Bedfordshire Head Widower Ag lab
Rebecca Rate 36 Spalding Lincolnshire Widow
George Evans 14 Toddington Bedfordshire
Arthur Evans 13 Toddington Bedfordshire
Clara Evans 10 Toddington Bedfordshire
Fred Evans 7 Toddington Bedfordshire
Sarah Rate 7 Spalding Lincolnshire
1891 census RG12 2562 folio 59
Brewers Arms 24, 25, 26 Holbeach Road Spalding Lincolnshire
Sarah J Rate 17 Spalding, Lincolnshire, Domestic Servant
Regards
Valda
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Dale
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Hi Valda
Thank you. I have that census entry. I don't have 1871 where hopefully William & Rebecca Rate are together!
I think the 1881 census entry "proves" that Rebecca didn't marry William Wiseman who was named on her daughter's birth cert .
Thanks again
Marlene .
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
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Marlene
All it may mean is that William was using two surnames - one for everyday use - appearing on censuses and one for 'legal events' such as births, marriages and deaths. The usual reason for this would be illegitimacy.
Regards
Valda
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Dale
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Hi Valda
Do you mean that the William RATE who married Rebecca in 1863 might be the William WISEMAN whom she named on her daughter, Sarah Jane Rate Wiseman's birth cert?
That is, one & the same person?
Now that thought hadn't crossed my mind! I haven't encountered that with any of my own!
Cheers
Marlene
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
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Marlene
I've seen lots of examples where illegitimate people use two surnames. The one they prefer in their everyday life - usually their father's surname and the one they consider is probably their legal surname - their mother's.
In fact it has always been the case in this country that you can use legally any name you like - even today.
However the law on illegitimacy (not changed until 1927) meant that even if an illegitimate person's parents married after their birth it made no difference they remained illegitmate and had no legal claim on their father (only really an issue where there was any financial inheritance involved). The 1927 change in the law meant a subsequent marriage did legitimise the children born before the marriage.
Usually the children continue on in the use of the everyday surname both for censuses and in civil registration.
You really need the details of the marriage to research William Rate further to see if there is any possibility he could also be William Wiseman.
What after all happened to William Rate?
What was the occupation of William Wiseman on the birth of Sarah? What was the address?
If not William Rate as William Wiseman do you have a candidate for William Wiseman?
Regards
Valda
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Dale
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Kia Ora Valda
Thank you for the explanation much appreciated! I guess my olds (apart from one) must have been fairly strict! Births, Deaths and Marriages all in order over the 3000 persons that I have! Apart from mistranscriptions that is  .
I think my friend is off air (!) this evening but she had got a right old muddle. I have asked her to look for the couple as either Wiseman or Rate in 1871 as I no longer have Ancestry.
She'll have to get the marriage cert to see if that progresses our limited knowledge.
Sarah Jane Rate Wiseman's birth cert states William Wiseman was a labourer. Sarah was born at 6 Herring Lane Spalding. We know she married the son of Mark Evans (with whom they resided in 1881) and that Sarah Jane Evans died in 1960 in Spalding.
There is a 45 year old William Rate Ag Lab in Langtoft in 1881 a lodger. So he might have left Rebecca between Sarah Jane's conception, birth in 1874 and the 1881 Census??? He says he is married.
Until I get further info I'm a bit stuck!!!
Thanks for your help!
Marlene
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
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1871 census RG10 1333 folio 88
Dunger Place Finchley Middlesex
William Rate 37 Langtoft? Lincolnshire Head Married Coachman
Ann Rate 28 Spalding Lincolnshire Wife Married
The right ageish and place of birth for Rebecca
William Rate was still in Langtoft on the 1891 census and still maintaining his status was married, though both on the 1861 and 1881 censuses he was an ag lab. On the 1901 census he had a 39 year old wife and a 4 year old step daughter which might indicate by then he knew his first wife was dead. When did Rebecca die?
His parents were William and Ann (his age varies on censuses 4 in 1841, 13 in 1851, 23 in 1861, 37 in 1871, 45 in 1881, 50 in 1891 and 66 in 1901)
William Francis Rate
Christening: 02 JUN 1838 Langtoft, Lincoln
Father: William Rate
Mother: Ann
Births Jun 1838
RATE William Francis Bourn 14 280
no reason to believe this man was illegitmate
WILLIAM RATE
ANN SEWELL
Marriage: 18 SEP 1834 Spalding, Lincoln
Robert Sewell Rate
Christening: 31 DEC 1848 Langtoft, Lincoln
Father: William Rate
Mother: Ann
Marriages Jun 1897
Bennington Mary Bourn 7a 823
(there is a previous marriage of a William Rate in Bourn registration district in June quarter 1868)
Rate William Bourn 7a 823
Regards
Valda
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Dale
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Kia Ora Valda
Info much appreciated thank you!
I think it wise to mention here that some of Sarah Jane's children emigrated to the Colonies in this case like my family to New Zealand.
Unlike the English who probably know that Grandma X married Grandpa Y and lived in Lincs or wherever we have little or no idea who was left behind at the time of emigration.
Our families came to NZ with a cabin trunk of specified clothing, a few private possessions ( I have a hand mirror and 4 photos of my great gran's for example). We have to remember that2 world wars and a depression effectively broke all comminication- addresses were lost on both sides & people were forced to move or died.
My greatgrandparents had to clear land, build a cottage, make furniture and then put everything down a well & high tail it with 10 kids in a wagon to escape possible Land Wars. It was very easy to lose addresses, photos, family bibles and any other precious personal information in the upheaval.
I say all of this because most of us have to start with knowledge of our grandparents, the birth dates of their children and work backwards to find family in England, Scotland, Ireland, many European countries and resettlement of those who first went to Australia or Canada & then moved on...
All of these complications mean that we have no idea when a William Rate died for example. or a Rebecca Rate - worse still when either or both might have remarried.
I have managed to find my own family relatively easily because there were few complications, I had 4 family photos with written clues on the back and a Christmas Card my great gran kept until her death in 1936. Absolutely invaluable clues which have allowed me to track down to living rellies. Incidentally none of the people I have tracked had any idea they had Colonial cuzzies !! They have their family trees with my names inscribed but no idea where or what happened to the individuals!
My friend is in the same boat! You have to ask a lot of questions and get a fairly clear picture in your mind of who, what, where or when events may have occurred and what the options are. You can put an awful amount of money into the British Govt coffers barking up the wrong (family)tree - so to speak!
I hope this helps you to understand some of the complications we face. I am very grateful for the additional info you have supplied and shall share it with Leah over the weekend. It certainly opens up other opportunities to pursue!
Thanks very much indeed!
Marlene
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
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Marlene
I often find that families that emigrated have more knowledge and more records than families who remained, who often know little if anything beyond their grandparents. The few things that families kept when they emigrated have been cherished and the memories repeated and passed down through the generations.
I research a one name study and have found it crucial to contact people with the same surname overseas because it is often those lines that fill in the gaps and supply the missing information no longer held by their distant relatives here. They also are the ones that supply the photographs -often the only images still in existence for C19th ancestors.
However where you get 'breaks' in lines such as caused by illegitimacy you tend to find silence reigns on both sides of the Atlantic regardless of descendents' circumstances.
Regards
Valda
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Dale
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Kia ora Valda
Illegitimacy and early "adoptions" can certainly cause havoc no matter where you are located!
Down Under we are probably more fortunate as both Memories and Records have been very well kept of the soldiers who served overseas in both World Wars and they weren't burnt in later bombings or damaged in some other way.
What is difficult is
1. the lack of census records
2. the lack of Civil Regstration for early immigrants ( I had family who went to Canada had 2 daughters & then returned to England before Civil Reg began.)
3. electoral rolls which are a nightmare to search unless you have an idea where the family settled.
4. the lack of information online - we do not have BMDs online for example. And the microfiche have numbers instead of a town or location which can vary every quarter!
Ah well back to the Drawing Board~~!
Cheers
Marlene
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HUNTS: Fairy, Ding, Scotney, Swinton, Burgess, Brace
BEDS: Farey, Fairy, Young, Rootham, Gell, Wildman, Cooper. Deighton, Flavel.
NORTHANTS: Hills, Mobbs, Twelftrees,
DERBY: Fairey,
LONDON: Fairey, Fairy, Burgess, Williams, Tanser, Picknell, Vinall, Plampin, Mullins, Day, Folwell, Bamfield, Brown
WATFORD HERTS; Burgess, Williams
WARKS: Fairy, Ward, Stephens, Reeves, Hodgkiss, Byrne, Hunt, Edgeworth, Harper, Dudley,
WORCS: Callow, Lowe
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Valda
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Aren't NSW, Victoria, Queensland, Western Australia and Tasmania BMDs now online and doesn't Australia have early surviving censuses up to 1828?
The family who went to Canada were they in the army because the GRO overseas military indexes go back to 1761.
Regards
Valda
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