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Topic: Manning Bloss BORLEY - Father - Robert LIMOU - fact or fiction? (Read 1163 times)
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cogvos
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 32
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear all,
My research has turned this up which I am baffled about.
Manning Bloss Borley was baptised in Tendring (Essex, but you'll see why I'm posting here shortly) on 15 Jul 1851 the illegitimate child to Althea Borley.
Althea was born in Barham, Suffolk on 3 Feb 1820 to George Borley and Amy Garnham and apparently never married. I have traced her in the 1841,51,61,71,81 and 91 census - minus Manning and she tended to move around a lot.
Manning was adopted by William and Mary Watkins, He is Living with them in Claydon, Suffolk in 1861 aged 9 and is still with them in 1871 shortly before he marries in 1873. The fact that he appears to have been adopted by a completely unrelated family is a bit unusual in itself. Most adoptions around this time were by relatives, or so I have been told by the national archive people.
It's his marriage certificate that has me really puzzled as this states Manning Bloss Borley's father is Robert Limou.
Given that Manning spent most of his life with his adopted parents, and may never have known his mother (I have no evidence either way) I am baffled as to how he could know his fathers name. Further the fathers occupation is listed as a Farmer, yet has far as I can tell Robert Limou never existed. I can find no record of him, or a similar name in Freebmd, or in any census. I would be less sceptical if the fathers occupation was listed as sailor/mariner etc since Tendring is close to the coast and the name does sound French Limoux, perhaps)
Equally I can't really see why Manning would invent such an unusual name, why not Jim Smith, or Taylor?
Has anyone else had something similar? Is Limou perhaps a poor house alias for illegitimate? Has anyone who is researching in Suffolk come across any Limou's or similar?
Hoping someone can shed a bit of light.
J.
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« Last Edit: Friday 24 August 07 11:11 UTC (UK) by Rick »
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9695
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Are you sure the surname is Limou and not Limon - a surname found in Lincolnshire where the censuses show several Robert Limons.
Have you tried the poor law records for Tendring to see whether Manning's father paid maintence for the child's upkeep?
Regards
Valda
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cogvos
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 32
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Many thanks for your reply,
Hmm, you know it might be limon. Manning married a Sarah Snell and on the certificate this actually looks like Sarah Suell. I hadn't noticed that before!
Sadly I haven't been able to get to Chelmsford records yet, Manning's birth is the only connection any of my current tree has with Essex. Althea was born in Suffolk, Manning married there, and it looks like the Snells and Borleys are a long standing standing Suffolk residents. I guess I could stop off on my next visit to Ipswich, or perhaps pop a research request on roots. I've only just joined so am finding my feet.
J
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9695
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Or given which family Althea was living with as a housekeeper on the 1851 census could the surname be Simon? (are you looking at a copy of the marriage certificate - a GRO certificate - and even local registry office produced certificates can be hand copies, or a copy of the actual original marriage from the church register itself? Victorian handwriting - the capital S can often be misread as L). If Manning had had no contact with his father and little with his mother this might be as close as his knowledge came to the name of his father.
Robert Symonds the farmer remained in Kenton but his wife was not present on each night of the next two censuses.
In 1861 she was boarding in Ipswich and in 1871 she was a patient (lunatic) in Norwich in Bethel asylum.
By 1881 Robert was a farmer of 400 acres living in Kenton Hall. He was still married but I can't see Susan his wife.
By 1891 Robert had retired to Debenham and was a widower.
Deaths Jun 1881
SYMONDS Susan 67 Norwich 4b 90
Deaths Sep 1896
Symonds Robert 80 Bosmere 4a 483
Susan and Robert had no further children, or at least ones that survived after Nathaniel who was 3 on the 1851 census.
Marriages Sep 1839
Symonds Robert Woodbridge 12 701
WRIGHT Susan Woodbridge 12 701
Suffolk Record Office might hold some records if Robert Symonds was involved and Althea pursued maintenance payments. If the settlement was a private affair there will be no records.
If still nothing emerges from any possible records and bearing in mind tracking Robert Symonds could be a complete red herring, his wife's asylum records might shed some light on the state of the couple's marriage. Bethel Hospital records are held at Norwich Record Office.
Regards
Valda
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cogvos
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 32
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Valda and Lizdb,
Once again many thanks for the replies.
I have a copy of Manning's birth certificate from the GRO and this does not list a father. I have yet to visit the Essex records so do not know if there is perhaps a Bastardy case which might name a possible father, or if there is a father listed on the parish register. I would suspect not, but I have come across a couple of GRO transcription problems so might be in for a surprise...
Not withstanding this I have a copy of Manning Borley and Sara Snell's marriage certificate where both 'fathers' are listed. When I visited Ipswich I was able to trace Sarah's family in Burgh, Daughter of Francis Snell and Sarah Last.
Having said that I have the 1851 census for Althea (first post) I now can't find it (!) I tend to write the year on the census records I keep as I can never work out the references. Unfortunately I didn't do this on one of Althea's - it's reference is RG 9 1097 and is for Batalph near Colchester. Althea is listed as 40 years old (so it's probably the 1861 census) as a housekeeper at number 33 with Thomas Segmer (age 22) an <illegible> Assistant and Mary A Goodchild (also 22) a servant.
It looks like I should start by getting hold of the 1851 census (or at least try and find where it's got to) and then work from there. It could well be that Althea had a relationship with someone in the household where she was house keeper.
J.
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1339
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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In 1861 Althea Borley age 40 was working as a Housekeeper to a Druggist/Chemist at 34 Botolph Street in Colchester, in the St Botolph parish of the town.
The assistant druggist looks like Thomas Seamer/Seawer (part of the loop on the capital G of Goodchild seems to be wrapped around this chaps name!)
RG 9 1097 as you remembered 
SM ...
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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cogvos
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 32
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
Many thanks for clearing up the 1861 census. I confess that I am not very good at deciphering handwriting. I spent ages looking for a Thomas Wills only to find out he was a Wiles and then later that he wasn't part of my tree at all !
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1339
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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No problem 
I think it also helps if you are local and know the names of places - makes the deciphering a bit easier.
SM ...
in south west Suffolk
(last visit to Colchester - one week ago).
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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Valda
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9695
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Up to the 1851 census the Home Office was responsible for the censuses HO = Home Office
Thereafter it was the Registrar General = RG
The 1841 and 1851 censuses are more difficult to tell apart because of the HO107 start but the subsequent censuses are easy once you know the starting point is RG9 = 1861
RG10 = 1871
and so on
1851 census HO107 1802 folio 66
Kenton Hall Kenton Suffolk
Robert Symonds 34 looks like Bough - on 1871 census Burgh Suffolk Head Married Farmer of 395 acres employing 11 men and 7 boys
Susan Symonds 38 Shotesham Suffolk Wife Married
Jane Symonds 9 Grundisburgh Daughter
Ada Symonds 8 Grundisburgh Daughter
Robert Symonds 7 Grundisburgh Son
Charles Symonds 4 Grundisburgh Son
Nathaniel Symonds 3 Grundisburgh Son
Althea Borley 30 Barham Suffolk Unmarried Housekeeper
plus 3 other servants, 2 women house servants and 18 year old Robert Gooding a farm servant.
Father's name on birth certificates
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm
'The early registrations between 1837 and approximately 1850 are a little mixed. The Act of Parliament of 1836 reads "And it be enacted that the father or mother of every child born in England................shall within 42 days next after the day of every such birth give information upon being requested so to do to the Registrar, according to the best of his or her knowledge and belief of the several particulars hereby required to be known and registered touching the birth of such child provided always that it shall not be necessary to register the name of any father of a bastard child."
Now some registrars interpreted that quite freely and put father in even where the couple were not married and only mother or someone else was signing the register and some did not allow fathers details to be entered in the register. By about 1850 the situation had been clarified and the instructions read quite clearly "No putative father is to be allowed to sign an entry in the character of "Father" ". From that time, therefore there are 2 kinds of entries in the register
(1) Where the parents were married to one another, fathers details must be entered in the register and only one parent will sign the register (or some other informant)
(2) Where the parents were not married to one another there will be blanks in Column 4 (fathers name) and Column 6 (his occupation).'
Regards
Valda
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cogvos
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 32
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Valda,
Many thanks for the info on the census workings it will help me a lot when looking through them.
I now have a copy of the 1851 census and hope that I'll be able to get to Colchester some time in the coming months to see if there are any settlement or court records relating to Manning and a possible father.
Also thank you for finding the clarification on birth certificates. The link was especially useful as it mentions the fact that some people just learnt to write their name, but still could not read. I had no idea about this and naively assumed that a signed name meant that the person was literate. Just goes to show that you can never assume anything when looking at old records!
J.
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5ubjohn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
Manning Bloss Borley was my Great-Grandfather. He was born on the 15th July 1851 in Alresford Essex. There is no father's name mentioned on his birth certificate but, on his marriage to Sarah Snell on the 1st March 1873 in Claydon Suffolk, his father's name is listed as Robert Simon - farmer.
His mother was Althea Borley who was baptised on the 18th June 1820 in Barham, Suffolk (Alethea Borley). Althea was employed as a housekeeper for several employers but, in the 1851 census and just before Manning's birth, she was working as housekeeper for Robert Symonds, a farmer of 400 acres at Kenton Hall, Kenton near Stowmarket, Suffolk. I am certain that this was the father of her child and my Great x 2 Grandfather.
Manning Bloss Borley was adopted by William Watkins, who was also born in Barham Suffolk c1808, and his wife Mary. They appear to have been a childless couple. In the 1851 census, they are listed as living in the nearby village of Claydon Suffolk, where they raised Manning in Paper Mill Lane Claydon Suffolk.
It was at 2 Paper Mill Lane that their 11 children were born, including my Grandmother, Rosa May Mary Borley.
I do not know where the christian names, Manning Bloss, originated from. I cannot find them in either the Borley or Symonds ancestry.
I would be pleased to correspond with any relations out there.
Regards,
John Tomalin
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Aulus
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 988
The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
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My guess would be that Bloss is a mother's maiden name somewhere up the line. Manning possibly the same. (a quick search of the national archives website reveals the Manning and Bloss surnames in East Anglia)
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Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens Marylebone & Sussex: Cole London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman Bowland: Marsden, Noble Shropshire: Guest Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1339
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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My husbands middle name Fruer took a while to find the origins.
It is the maiden family/surname of Ann, whose daughter Susannah married John and their first son bore the name as his middle name.
The first JF born 1790 and our son RJF born 1980 carries it forward.
It sometimes takes a bit of delving around to find these family names - always check back from the first person to have the name, on both sides of his/her family. You may need to go back a generation or two to find the origins.
And yes, they are both very much Suffolk names. Several people looking for Bloss and lots and lots of researchers looking for Manning on www.suffolk-surnames-list.co.uk
SM ...
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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cogvos
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 32
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello John,
I guess that we are very distantly related then. you might like to know a bit more about Althea, though perhaps you have this already?
She was born on 30 Feb 1820 in Barham, Suffolk to George and Amy (nee Garnham) Borley, one of 12 children. I have no idea why there was such a gap between her birth and christening. Sadly none are Manning or Bloss, though the 10th was christened Decimus. As far as I can tell Althea never married but was living with her younger sister Jane (bn 16 Nov 1829) at 118 Spring Road, St Helen Ipswich in 1891. She was still alive 10 years later, though on her own in Alms houses, finally passing away in 1905 aged 85, a very respectable age for the times.
As far as I can find out Althea is not a common name at all, (Anthea but not Althea) which suggests that there may be a family somewhere in the past who had a set of slightly unusual names and perhaps this is the origin of the Bloss or Manning.
Equally it could be that it is a Maiden name.
It does look like Robert Symonds was the father and I wonder if there is a bastardy case somewhere in the records. I one of these in another branch of my family, - a Rebecca Hite, illegitimate child of Ann Stringer and Thomas Wastaff (Ann Married a Hite who was transported at the time of Rebecca's birth). Such a record might just confirm the fathers name.
One of the (many) things that has puzzled me about Manning is why he was adopted by the Watkins family. Generally orphans etc were adopted by family members and at present I cannot find any link between the Borleys and Watkins. Have you any ideas?
I haven't been able to get back any further yet as, being based in London and working all week it's very difficult for me to get to Suffolk.
J.
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