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Topic: Elusive Ferns/Fearns (Read 1620 times)
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1840
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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John Ferns/Fearns was a widower when he married Susan Armstrong in Glasgow in 1874. He was a Coastguard and gave his usual residence as Adelaide Place, Gourock.
I can find no record of him in the 1871 census to see if it would give his 1st wife's name.
Only previous record I can find is 1841 census when he is 10 yrs old living in Glasgow with father Peter and mother Ann
I then have him on the 1881 census with his new wife and family in Inverkip
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9011
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Sancti
The closest I can see in 1871 is this entry. Everyone showing as born in Glasgow:
John Frans 38, Seaman Coast Guard
Elizabeth Frans 38
Elizabeth Frans 8
Charles Cramsie 9, nephew
Address: 83 Shore St, Kirkmaiden Wigtownshire
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9011
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The above wife might connect with this death entry:
1873 FERNS ELIZABETH MCDONALD F 41 KIRKMAIDEN /WIGTOWN 890/00 0032
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9011
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Can't easily see the marriage for John and Elizabeth. This is the closest I can see for the birth of daughter Elizabeth:
1864 FEARNS ELIZABETH F BRIDGETON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/03 0236
There are three more entries showing for an El* F*rns born between 1860-65 anywhere in Scotland.
In respect of 'nephew' Charles Cramsie from the 1871 entry, there are only two entries showing on IGI, both to same parents - maybe first Charles died? Parents Charles Cramsie and Margaret Mcauslan:
1. CHARLES CRAMSIE Birth: 26 MAY 1861 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
2. CHARLES CRAMSIE Birth: 18 SEP 1863 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1840
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Monica.
The death record for Elizabeth could work but as you say I cant find a marriage for them.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9011
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Sancti
This looks like John with family in the 1851 census:
Peter Faine 40, Block Printer Joureyman, b. Glasgow
Agnes Faine 39, Dyer Jourey, b. Ayrshire
John Faine 18, Bleacher Journey, b. Glasgow
Margret Faine 9, b. Denny, Stirlingsh
Ann Faine 8, b. Glasgow
Charles Faine 4, b. Glasgow
James Faine 1, b. Cathcart
Address: New Cathcart, Renfrewshire
In 1861, with John now away from home:
Peter Ferns 62
Agnes Ferns 55
Ann Ferns 18
Charles Ferns 13
James Ferns 11
Peter Ferns 8, b. Husgon (?), Lanarkshire
Address: Row Of Cottages, Mearns, Renfrewshire
Monica
Added: Possibility for John in the English 1861 Census - the only one showing with a Scottish birth place, so happens also showing Glasgow:
John T Ferns, 24, able seaman, b. Glasgow - Vessels Royal Navy
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1840
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks again Monica
Did the 1871 result give Elizabeths (daur) birthplace?
The Bridgeton one has the wrong parents
The birthplace for 8 yr old Peter is actually Glasgow on the SP image
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1840
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Its also posible that John and Elizabeth married in England. The record in 1861 census could be the link to becoming a Coastguard
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9011
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The 1871 index entry shows all of them with a Glasgow birth place. As I'm sure you have seen by now, these were the only other entries I could see on SP for births of daughter Elizabeth (searching for El* F*rns 1860-65):
1 1860 FEARNS ELISABETH F GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/01 0594
2 1864 FAIRNS ELISABETH F NEW OR EAST KILPATRICK /DUNBARTON 500/00 0002
3 1865 FERNS ELEANOR BROADLE F GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 0203
There is always the possibility also that Elizabeth child may not have been the daughter of John but from a previous relationship for mother?
The death of Elizabeth McDonald in Kirkmaiden in 1873 is certainly the correct one (husband John F - coast guard) 
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9011
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There is an Elizabeth McDonald lodging in Glasgow in 1861, age 33 b. Glasgow, Power Loom Cotton Weaver, that might fit.
There is also this possible entry for (illegitimate - only mother Elizabeth McDonald's name shows) births:
ELIZABETH MCDONALD Birth: 08 OCT 1862 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1840
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks again Monica. It's given me plenty to think about
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1248
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
I've examined those previous postings over and over again, and why shouldn't I, since the subject matter being discussed is my ancestors. Some time ago I mentioned how my Grandfather, Peter Cochrane Ferns was the second husband of Margaret Buchanan Forsyth. He would appear to have been born on the 26th June, 1877 at Lamlash in Bute, to his parents John Jackson Ferns and his second wife, Susan Armstrong. Peter married on the 15th September, 1899 at 17 Woodlands, Coatbridge in Lanarkshire before moving across Scotland to Fife, where he worked as a miner at No. 2 Pit, Bowhill, Auchterderran.
I have been fascinated to see fresh details emerging about my Great-Grandfather, John Jackson Ferns, and his first marriage to Elizabeth McDonald. However, there are quite a few blank pages about the life of John Jackson Ferns and his father, Peter Ferns, the calico (block) printer who married Agnes (Ann) Jackson.
When I look at the 1881 Census, I can see:
Dwelling: Main Street.
Census Place: Inverkip, Renfrew, Scotland.
Source: FHL Film 0203576 GRO Ref. Volume 567-1 Enum Dist 4 Page 19
John J. FERNS Head Occ. Coast Guard M Age 45 birthplace: Glasgow, Lan.
Susan FERNS Wife F Age 36 birthplace: Stranraer, Wig.
John FERNS Son M Age 5 birthplace: Gourock, Renfr.
Peter FERNS Son M Age 3 birthplace: Lamlash, Bute
Susan FERNS Daur F Age 1 birthplace: Kildonan, Bute
We then come to the entry about the ancestor that I'm trying to find more information on:
Peter FERNS Relationship to Head of Household: Father. Occupation: Formerly Block Printer. Marital Status: Widower. Age 82. Birthplace: Glasgow, Lanark.
Over the past few months, we've discovered that Old Peter, the former Block Printer, died on the 2nd October, 1884 at Mossland Cottage, Renfrew, about 12 years after the death of his wife, Agnes (Ann) Jackson who died in October, 1872 at Busby in Renfrew.
I am aware of the importance of source details, and so have inserted them onto the Census details. The Death Details are from the Death Certificates.
I am aware of the invaluable work carried out by Monica and acknowledge it here. However, in order to attempt to find more about Old Peter Ferns, the former Block Printer, I decided that I would like to examine some of the Census material for myself as well as the material referring to the first wife of John Jackson Ferns.
There is still much to do if I am ever to have a history of my family, that is painfully obvious. However, it is, after all, merely a hobby, and I treat it as such. I will say again and again just how much I appreciate the kindness displayed by people such as Gadget, Monica and Sancti and I am sure that they know that.
Best wishes to you all.
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1248
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!
When we look at the 1851 Census taken at New Cathcart, Renfrew we can see quite a number of errors on the document, such as the spelling of the Surname, the ages, and so on. However, I believe it to be quite a useful document. It shows Old Peter Ferns (name misspelt on the Census) with his wife and family.
We see the eldest son, John, aged 18 at the time of the Census in 1851, suggesting that his birthdate was about 1833. However, if the Scots naming pattern was being adhered to, then the name is quite correct, since he would have been named after his Paternal Grandfather, John Ferns. That fact can be confirmed by reading the entry on Old Peter's Death Certificate. The 1851 Census doesn't show Peter Ferns, Junior, on it. That's to be expected since he wasn't born until about the year 1853 in Lanarkshire.
The 1861 Census taken at the Row of Cottages in Mearns, Renfrew gives us a much better indication as to the actual age of Old Peter Ferns. He is shown as being aged 62 at the time of the Census. However, quite importantly the sequence of Ann, Charles, James and Peter is absolutely correct.
We can then turn to the 1871 Census taken at Shore Street, Kirkmaiden in Wigtown where we find John Ferns, (if it is him), with wife, Elizabeth and their eight year-old daughter, Elizabeth. It's sad to realise that just three years later, John's wife, Elizabeth McDonald would be dead and John would marry Susan Armstrong on 28th July, 1874 at Milton in Glasgow.
I will get back to you shortly.
My best wishes to you all.
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1248
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
By taking another look at the Census dated 7th April, 1861 taken at the Row of Cottages, Parish of Mearns, Village of Busby, Renfrew, we can see Charles Ferns, the 13 year-old son of Peter Ferns and his wife, Agnes (Ann) Jackson. That would mean that he would have been born c. 1848.
The next time that I took an interest in Charles was in the marriage of Charles to Ellen McGee on the 14th July, 1870 at Hutchesontown, Glasgow. Ellen's parents were John McGee and Ann Conlan. Within a couple of years, Charles and Ellen would see their son, Peter, who had been born on 7th January, 1871, die.
As a bit of background to the history of the family, I'm led to understand that Ellen McGee's father, John, who was an iron foundry labourer, died on May 6th., 1872 at No. 103 Crown Street, in Glasgow. His Death Certificate shows tht he was the widower of Anne Conlan. John McGee's Death Certificate also tells us that his father was also named John McGee and his mother was Mary ....... The Informant was his his son, Matthew McGee whose residence was shown as 93 Dundast Street, Kingston.
I'm certainly beginning to see quite a bit more detail than was available to me prior to my registering for RootsChat in December, 2007. That's really wonderful, and I do thank everyone involved for their involvement and kindness.
Best wishes, as always.
Tom.
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