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Topic: Elusive Ferns/Fearns (Read 683 times)
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
I'm sure that many of my friends out there on RootsChat will have noted how I'm literally "busting a gut" to give appropriate source information. This will ensure that other researchers will be able to see every step that I took, and save a lot of time and effort.
I have to say however, that I occasionally come across information that simply doesn't add up, and that slows me down quite a bit. I niggle away at it, however, and when I get an answer, I'm pleased to notify you what the problem was. Such is the case with the following:
Extracted birth/christening record.
Batch No: C119341
Dates: 1855-1875
Peter FERNS born 7th January, 1871 at Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanark.
Extracted birth/christening record.
Batch No: C119341
Dates: 1855-1875
John FERNS born 30th December, 1871 Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanark.
The problem was that the second entry for John FERNS gave his mother's Surname as McFEE instead of McGEE!
Marriage of Charles FERNS to Ellen McGEE14th July, 1870 at Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanark.
Surname is spelt FEARNS.
Source information:
Batch No: M119341
Dates: 1855-1875
Source: 6035516.
I would hope tht the above will be useful to other researchers, and cut down on their time.
Best wishes, as always.
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
Time to take another look at the possibility of an Irish connection when examining the life and times of Peter Ferns and his wife, Agnes (Ann) Jackson.
Peter FERNS, a Labourer, Widower of Ann JACKSON, died on October 2nd., 1884 at Mossland Cottage, Renfrewshire at the age of 84. The Informant on the Death Certificate was his son, Peter FERNS (Junior),
Peter FERNS (Junior), was shown on the 7th April, 1861 Census as being 8 years of age, making his birth date c.1853 and birthplace as Glasgow. He had two elder brothers, James and Charles FERNS. James would have been born c.1850 at Cathcart and Charles c.1848 at Carmonnel. His sister, Ann FERNS, was shown on the Census as 18 years of age making her birthdate c.1843. She appears to have followed her father into the printing of calico trade since her occupation is given as Printfield Maker. It's interesting to note that Peter FERNS' neighbours at the Row of Cottages, Parish of Mearns, at the village of Busby in Renfrewshire, are also described as Printfield Makers.
Another point to note, which may or may not be, of some importance, is that Peter FERNS (Senior's) neighbours, Margaret Connolly, a widow, aged 75 was born in Ireland, as was her neighbour, John Paths and his family.
As I've said on numerous occasions, putting some "meat on the bones" isn't quite as daft it may appear, especially when one has so little data to work with. Of course, we have to work with original records, but, when such records appear to be unobtainable, then there is no harm in conducting research in an effort to release more information, providing of course, that great care is taken not to jump to the wrong conclusions.[i][/i]
Since we know that certain members of the FERNS family died in and around the Glasgow area, (such as Busby, which is in Renfrewshire), then my next question is: Where were those individuals actually laid to rest? If there are gravestones marking their last resting places, then the inscriptions on such gravestones could be of considerble interest to a member of the family such as I. Anybody willing to take that step on my behalf?
My best wishes as always.
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
In my previous posting, I mentioned the fact that Old Peter FERNS' son, Peter, Junior was the Informant on his father's Death Certificate rather than his elder brother, John Jackson FERNS.
The reason for that is quite simple: John Jackson FERNS, Coast Guardsman, married to Susan ARMSTRONG had died on May 15th, 1884, less than six months before the death of his father. John had died at 3 Alice Street, Glasgow at the age of 48 years, (making his birthdate c. 1836).
Best wishes,
Tom.
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« Last Edit: Monday 21 July 08 11:31 BST (UK) by tommacgregor »
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
As you would have seen from other postings of mine, I asked the question on Thursday, 3rd July, '08 "Where were those (Ferns) individuals actually laid to rest?" Since then a number of searches of various cemeteries have been undertaken and I have been in Contact with the authorities in Renfrewshire.
Tracking down old Peter Ferns, the Block Printer, and his wife, Agnes Jackson, is proving to be quite a task, but that hasn't stopped me from looking at the problem from a number of different angles. One perfectly reasonable step that I've taken, is examining where members of Peter and Agnes' family were on specific dates, when they married, and to whom, did they subscribe to the old Scot's custom of naming patterns when they named their children, and so on and so forth.
I also took yet another look at the possibility of an Irish connection and noted that when the family were living at the Row of Cottages, Parish of Mearns, they were engaged in the calico dying and printing trade, as were their neighbour's, some of whom had originated in Ireland.
I have written extensively about the elder son of old Peter Ferns, namely John Jackson Ferns and his two marriages, but have not said very much about his other children.
Sometimes I am hesitant about going into detail about my correspondence with other researchers due to the unacceptable conduct of some that Sancti mentioned on a recent posting. As you would know, I refuse to be drawn into such conduct and merely continue with my research.
I would like other researchers to take a look at a James Ferns who was residing at No. 1 Fountainwell Road in Glasgow, Lanarkshire at the time of the 1881 Census.. For those interested parties who require Source Details: Source: FHL Film 0203650 GRO Ref: Vol.644-6 Enum. Dist. 65 Page 2.
We find a James Ferns as the Head of the household aged 31, (which suggests that his birthdate was around 1850). He is shown as having been born in Glasgow, Lanarkshire and his occupation is that of loco. engineer. Now, those details appear to fit in quite well with the details that I have about James Ferns, the son of old Peter Ferns and his wife Agnes.
His wife, Ellen, is given the same age and birthplace. The eldest child, James Ferns is shown as being aged 5, which would have made his date of birth about 1876, which would mean that his mother, Ellen, would have been about 26 years of age when she gave birth to him. That also gives me a rough guide as to when James and Ellen married.
Then we have details of the next child, Elizabeth Ferns, shown as being aged 3 at the time of the Census, which would have made her date of birth about 1878. The youngest child, John Ferns was only 9 months old at the time of the Census.
I give this information to other researchers not as a totally completed exercise with all of the "i's" dotted and all the "t's" crossed. I just don't work like that. I consider that I do my fair share of research, and that people don't learn much if everything is done for them. Surely, the object of the exercise is to give as much detail as possible, and then invite other researchers to take up the baton and use that raw material as a stepping stone to a far more intensive search.
I will be interested to hear if the family that I have mentioned above is, in fact, the son and daughter-in-law of old Peter Ferns.
My best wishes to you and yours.
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1234
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!,
There is little doubt that such counties as Ayrshire, Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire became areas where many people from Ireland settled and raised their families. From the rather scant information that I have, I believe that some members of my own family made that trip across the Irish Sea.
Now, people like "Sancti" have a far better knowledge of Lanarkshire than I, and so I would think that he would be quite interested in this posting that shows a John Ferns and his wife, residing with a couple who had indeed travelled over from Ireland.
Dwelling: 118 Parliamentary Road.
Census Place: Barony, Lanarkshire.
Source: FHL Film 0203649 GRO Ref: Vol 644-6 Enum. Dist: 37 Page 11.
George Louchrie Head Age 48 Born in Ireland.
Martha " Mother " 88 Born in Ireland.
Mary " Dau " 11 Born in Glasgow, Lanarks.
John FERNS Son-in-Law " 24 Born in Glasgow, Lanarks.
Agnes " Dau " 24 Born in Partick, Lanarks
Martha O'Hair Dau - Visitor " 22 Born in Glasgow, Lanarks.
Catherine O'Hair Grand-daughter - visitor
Age 3 Born in Glasgow, Lanarks.
Ann O'Hair Grand-daughter - visitor
Age 1 Born in Hamilton, Lanarks.
So, here we have the 24 year-old John FERNS, and his wife staying with the Louchrie family at a place called Barony in Lanarkshire. The question is, just who was this John Ferns? Who were his parents? Who were his siblings?
Again, there is a need for further research, and I have given the building blocks for other researchers to work with. I make no apology for not completing the exercise. I would much prefer that you sharpen your skills and thus have the tools to carry out your research at a pace that suits you - not others. Family History is an enjoyable hobby for me, and not something where every word written is examined and made to sound different to what was intended. As always, I invite other researchers to become involved.
My best wishes to you and yours.
Tom.
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4277
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Tom,
For my own benefit (and it could well be of use to others) I am trying to winkle out where there are specific questions in your posts and, if there are, what they are (and also whether they relate to your own ancestry).
Reply #18
Here goes with my understanding in respect of the above post.
*You are descended from a John Jackson FERNS (however spelled), a son of a Peter FERNS & an Agnes JACKSON.
*According to the 1851 and 1861 censuses (census information very kindly looked up and posted by Gadget on the Wigtownshire board), John had a brother called James - in the 1851 James was aged 1; in the 1861 he was aged 11; in both censuses his birthplace was given as Cathcart, Renfrewshire.
*You have now found a family at Fountainwell Rd, Glasgow in the 1881 Scotland census where the head of household is a James FERNS, age 31, married, a locomotive engineer, born Glasgow.
*You wish to know whether he is the same person as James, brother of your John i.e. you wish to know the names of the parents of James of Fountainwell Rd.
*You are asking RootsChatters to provide this information.
Do please set me right if my understanding above is incorrect.
If my understanding of your request is correct, then - of course - it might just happen that your post would be read by someone who already has the information you want (probably a remote possibility - though it would certainly be a very happy coincidence).
Otherwise, what is the way forward?
As far as I am aware, the only other way (in my experience) for anyone to find the information you are after would be by purchasing the marriage certificate from (the pay-per-view site) ScotlandsPeople.
Scottish marriage certificates normally include - for both bride and groom - the name and occupation of their fathers, and the name and maiden surname of their mothers.
So, you would first need to find an appropriate marriage for James of the census.
If it was in 1875 or earlier it might be in the IGI, otherwise it would be a matter of searching on ScotlandsPeople. There might, of course, be more than one possibility. And it might be necessary to search for variant spellings.
You would then need to download (for a fee) the relevant certificate(s) and check out the names of the parents ...
Regards,
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4277
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Tom,
To follow on from my previous post.
Reply #19
Here goes with my understanding with respect of the above post.
*You have found a man in Barony in the 1881 (I take it that it's the 1881) census whose name is John FERNS, aged 24, born Glasgow.
*He shares a surname with ancestors of yours but is not (as far as is known) related to you.
*You have asked RootsChatters to find out the names of the parents and siblings of this John FERNS.
The comments/advice in my previous reply apply equally here.
That is to say, unless someone already happens to have information on this John FERNS, finding out for certain the names of the parents of this John FERNS would almost certainly involve purchase of a marriage certificate from ScotlandsPeople.
Incidentally, the marriage itself is listed in the IGI. And, by checking out the birth of Agnes (LOCHRIE) FERNS's sister Mary in the IGI, the name of Agnes's mother can be found ...
The IGI has some possible births around the right time for this John FERNS.
Regards,
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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trish251
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 8343
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A medium length recap of this thread
Post 1Sancti is looking for John Fearns/Fearns in 1871
Post 2 Monica provides a transcription
Post3 Monica provides possible death of wife Elizabeth (McDonald)
Post 4 Monica provides birth of daughter & possible birth of Nephew (related to 1871 census)
Post 5 Sancti says thanks
post 6 Monica finds 1851 and 1861 information
Post 7 Sancti adds additional information/query
Post 8 Monica finds birth of 3 children & confirms death
Post 9 Monica finds possible birth information for wife
post 10 Sancti thanks
Post 11 Gadget confirms a Glasgow birthplace for Peter Ferns
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Each of the above postings were relatively short 8-10 lines (except for one giving multiple census entries). The thread was complete, the discussion ended.
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Then Mr MacGregor arrived
32 lines about an 1881 census entry, which Sancti indicated in the very first post was already in his possession
15 lines about the 1851 census - previously provided by Monica, adding NO new information to the discussion.
Then we have 14 lines on the 1861 census, also provided by Monica. Some marriage and death information, no doubt provided by Sancti or Monica on another thread are now added to the posting
The next page contains 5 posts (length 10 to 30 lines) - includes data kindly provided by other roots chatters, or transcribed from the IGI - answering no questions and asking rhetoric questions, filling up the bandwith and disk space so freely provided by Trystan and Sarah.
I discover from a minor search that much of this information has previously been discussed on this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,311600.45.html and and even via pm to a rather confused Celia.
JAP has then provided two posts, valliantly attempting to find merit in these lengthy transcriptions of BDM information and the familysearch web site. She has given, as usual, excellent advice on how to find any further information on this family.
I would suggest to JAP that rhetorical questions are provided so the asker of the question can at a later date proclaim the answer to have been found by his valiant efforts.
Can I suggest that the moderators delete everything on this thread after post number 11 except for the advice provided by JAP and then lock it.
Trish
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 22 July 08 14:00 BST (UK) by trish251 »
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