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Topic: Cleaning Old Gravestones (Read 1895 times)
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Guy Etchells
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Posts: 890
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The ownership of a gravestone belongs to the person who inherits it not to all the descendants of the original owner.
If wills are left the asset will be left to a specific person or will be included in a clause that covers "remaining assets".
If the owner died intestate then the assets are inherited in set proportions.
In most cases the remainder is either left to the spouse or children.
This means that in most cases the possible current owners of a gravestone will be within a relatively small group of people rather than hundreds.
Cheers
Guy
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Windsor87
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 157
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My mother used her shoe. Worked. So when can I expect the police?
I don't buy this whole heirs and successors business. If the stone has been allowedto degenerate into a bad state, I'd say that the 'owners' have given up their claim. Therefore, I will retain my unofficial right to clean any stone I so wish so long as it is evident that I'm not infringing on any family burial plot. I would, ofcourse, be careful not to destroy the stone. The incident with the shoe was simply a very thick layer of moss which easily brushed off. I know that I'm not imposing on anyones burial ground because that part of the cemetery is no longer used. One row after my line of graves there is a very steep fall! The stones in question were erected in 1838, 1890 and 1910. The last was erected by my great great grandmother. My grandfather, 'heir and successor' didn't even know that the site existed. That is three generations of his family lying side by side.
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Aberdeenshire/Banffshire:
Strachan, Connon, Watt, Beattie, Noble, Watt, Sinclair, Garden, Birnie, Wilson, Christie, Gatt, Watson, Sim, Ross, McWilliam, Middleton, Burr, Johnston, Munro, West, Porter, Trail, Bruce, Peddie, Kemp, Smith, Ewen, Kerr, Grieve, Whyte, Ritchie, Mackie, Jamieson, Barron, Grant, Robertson, McKay, Hadden, Forbes, Walls, Shepherd, McDonald, Duncan, Gray, Will, Thomson, Lascelles, Brown, Anderson, Doherty...
Dumfriesshire:
Bryson, Harkness, Scott, Roddick, Armstrong
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KathMc
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I can't argue with Windsor87's logic. As long as there is no damage done, I would be thrilled to find a stone already cleaned off for me. My mother would be one of the "heirs" to a number of plots and she's never been or hasn't been since a child. One of her cousins has the deed to one of the plots, bought in 1880s, and he's never been. I'm the only one in the family who has gone.
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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Jayson
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1024
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I agree with Widsors87's common sense approach. The "hairs & successors" business may well be correct but in reality does anyone really comply with this when approaching historical monuments? If they do, I cannot see any evidence of it. If the happenings near where I live are anything to go by then the opposite it true. Trying to establish the identity of the rightful "hairs & successors" of graves whose occupants have long since been removed by the passage of time from the consciousness of successive generations, if there were any successive generations to succeed, seems like an impractical if not impossible task.
Nowadays people outside our circle of interest are far more concerned with the difficulties of everyday life to concern themselves with someone removing a lump of moss from a stone with the heel of their shoe. I think all of us here would be delighted that our forebear's monument has been recorded for perpetuity as long as the method adopted doesn't damage the monument or environment.
Jayson
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Guy Etchells
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Posts: 890
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A very common sense approach which I suggest you use when a thief steals your car etc.
Nobody will care except you when you find out but hey that does not matter as the thief got what he/she wanted.
The rules and laws of society are put in place to protect the members of society whether they are present or not. That is why we cannot scratch another's car with a key, even though we think we are creating art.
One cannot absolve oneself from blame by claiming one did not know who the car belonged to or it would have been difficult to find the owners before one scratched the car.
There is a code in many areas of many countries that states-
"Leave no trace, leave what you find just as you found it.
Take only pictures, leave only the lightest of footprints, bring back only memories."
To do anything else is anti-social.
Unfortunately we live in a selfish world that does not understand this concept.
Cheers
Guy
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meles
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I'm sorry Guy - I do not believe there is a link with theft or vandalism.
If you find a grave that is part of your family and you treat it with decency and care and clean it carefully, this is not vandalism.
If it's got to that state, then the owners have abandoned it.
meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk Harrison: London; Pollock Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk Rogers: London; Bartlett: London Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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ricky1
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Hi
To be honest I have been in many graveyards over the years looking for relatives graves, and have seen lots of people cleaning grave stones of their beloved one's. I would have said the police have got better thing to do with their time, than going around nicking people for cleaning head stones, and removing a bit of moss or muck from them.
ricky
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Harby,Garton,Drury,Duncombe,Booth,Catton,Barker, Kirkby, Wilson. Lincolnshire, Also Murkin's, Jeffery,Pettitt,Carter, from Suffolk/Cambridgeshire boarder Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Jayson
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Posts: 1024
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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With respect Guy, I'm afraid I cannot identify the correlation between the recording of gravestones & vandalism. Your definition of vandalism is obviously very different from my understanding of what the word means.
In some cases, all that exits now to show monuments ever existed in the first place are transcriptions made by antiquarians who had had the foresight to realise that perhaps these epitaphs would not always be accessible for future generations to study. Monuments/gravestones & their epitaphs & iconography form a unique part of our social heritage illuminating society's attitude towards death, & their significance is not just recognised by the genealogical world, but also by historians & archaeologists as an important historical record which should be preserved. Monuments are under constant threat from natural decay, nefarious vandalism and destruction on an official level, which my family has had experience of.
Our ancestors erected gravestones so their memory could be carried forth from one generation to the next. Some of our older monuments are rapidly decaying and therefore need to be rescued from an attitude which promotes inertia and complacency. To do anything less is an injustice for which future generations will not thank us for.
Am I really guilty of anti-social behaviour for endeavouring to clean & transcribe my ancestor's memorial? I don't think so. And I reject the inference that I am most firmly. 
I am now going to burn my soap box 
Jayson
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Guy Etchells
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My definition of vandalism is doing something that interferes with personal or public property.
All gravestones are owned by somebody.
If we do not know who owns the gravestone we do not know what their preception of how that gravestone should be appear is.
They may take the view as many do that it is more respectful to allow nature to slowly reclaim the stone by allowing moss and/or lichen to cover it than the stark nudity of a cleaned stone. (Ashes to ashes dust to dust).
Some people actually welcome the reclaiming of the plot by nature as it reflects the reclaiming of the deceased body below the ground back to nature.
It is part of the way of the world.
We do not have the right to impose our perceptions on them by interfering with their property.
Moss does not grow overnight, they may have been enthusiastically watching that moss grow in the way some allow ivy to cover their houses.
That is the point.
Some people take the view that a churchyard should be managed like a war cemetery with short mown grass and regulated plots, others prefer a gentler approach with a less formal look.
Therefore to inflict your views on another by removing moss from a gravestone that does not belong to you is simply wrong and indeed a form of vandalism.
Cheers
Guy
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meles
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Guy
You make a good point which I had not considered before.
I think it's the word "vandalism" which is very emotive and may have upset some. "Vandalism" is deliberate damage. What people here are suggesting is good intentioned, although, as you say, not perhaps what the owners intended.
meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk Harrison: London; Pollock Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk Rogers: London; Bartlett: London Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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ricky1
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Hi Guy
So how do you go about family plots, you mean to say that you carnt clean your family plot cos of moss or muck on the headstone???. Even though you are more than likely to be buried there or have your ashes put in with your family.It's like saying you carnt cut the grass on a grave because it isn't your grass. I would rather see a nice kept graveyard with clean headstones and cut grass, than see one that has been left to rack and ruin. Lots of graveyards I have been to the parish council carnt even afford to cut the grass, but it is nice to see a well kept grave.
I made a promise to my father before he died that I would tend the family plot, and up to now have done so, and God help anyone who tried to stop me from doing it
ricky
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Harby,Garton,Drury,Duncombe,Booth,Catton,Barker, Kirkby, Wilson. Lincolnshire, Also Murkin's, Jeffery,Pettitt,Carter, from Suffolk/Cambridgeshire boarder Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Guy Etchells
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Posts: 890
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Ricky if you read my words you will see I was not writing about family plots, but about a gravestone where the ownership was unknown.
With a family plot one know who the owner of the plot would be and would talk to them about their wishes of how that plot was kept.
It is not difficult finding out who the rightful owner is in a known family as a grave stone is heritable property and inherited by set procedures either through will or intestate rules.
Having said that even family members must abide by the law with regard to lichens that may colonize a gravestone as many are protected by law.
Cheers
Guy
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ricky1
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Hi Guy
I think we could go round and round in circles about who own's what gravestone, but as far as I am concerned my ancestors bought and paid for the grave stone or plot,and we have both, one side has a plot and the otherside of the family has grave stones, and I think it is my duty as next of kin to keep it clean and neat for the next generation of my family. If it means removing moss etc so be it, as there are plenty of other things it can spread itself over.
ricky
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Harby,Garton,Drury,Duncombe,Booth,Catton,Barker, Kirkby, Wilson. Lincolnshire, Also Murkin's, Jeffery,Pettitt,Carter, from Suffolk/Cambridgeshire boarder Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Newf
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“This is not the age of reason, this is the age of flummery, and the day of the devious approach.
Reason’s gone into the backrooms where it works to devise means by which people can be induced to emote in the desired direction.”
John Wyndham, J. (1960), The Trouble With Lichen. Penguin Books. pg. 91
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk PLEDGER – 1678, Gt BardField, Essex EVERETT - 1830, Scoles, Norfolk & Epping, SX OSGATHORPE - 1825, North Kensington LILLEY – 1711, Ickleton, Cambs DAVISON – 1700-1710, Horncastle & Coningsby, Lincs BOWER – 1690-1700, Killinworth, Lincs CHASE – 1735, Kings Lynn, Norfolk LAIRD – 1777, Portsmouth, Hants & Kings Lynn, Norfolk GOWENLOCK – 1850, Carlisle KEW – 1814, Carlisle |
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KathMc
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2620
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I've kind of stayed away for a bit as it got a little hot in this room for me. Didn't mean to get anyone riled starting this topic. funny how something that seems so uncontroversial can get quite a discussion going.
Kath
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Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA
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Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
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