Author
|
Topic: Marjory Gillies - Applecross??? (Read 3820 times)
|
Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24439
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
|
Following on from this there is a family in the Portree Parish on the 1851 Census who's address is Hallaig. This is actually on Raasay (SE corner)
The ref is 114 ED 13 Page 7
It doesn't full fit because the family are mainly McLeods but there is a Donald Gillies, son in law, 27 and
Marion Gillies, 1, granddaughter, b. Portree.
Gadget
Added - Hallaig was cleared in June 1854
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
|
Hi again Steve,
Just to summarize my understandings (excuse the frequent references to 'I'  - but, after all, they are my understandings) 
From your post at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,169768
I take it that you do think that Marjory GILLIES (apparently from certificates she was b Applecross, Ross & Cromarty, daughter of Duncan GILLIES & Marion MCRAE) is the daughter of the Duncan GILLIES and Margaret/Marion/Maron MCRAE who married 5 Jul 1831. (There seems to be a typo for her birthdate in your post on that thread? - I gather that Marjory was actually born ca 1848-1850).
The GILLIES/MCRAE marriage/banns (refer IGI) was/were recorded in the parishes of Bracadale and Portree - both being in Inverness-shire.
In Bracadale, Duncan was listed as Duncan GILLES and Marion as Maron MACRAE.
In Portree, Duncan was listed as Duncan GILLIES and Marion as Marion MCRAE.
On your post at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=261448
I posted my interpretations of the locations of Duncan and Marion (from the image you posted of the Portree marriage entry) as:
Duncan - Castle of Rasay
Marion - Ferrinlea pt (part) of Bracad(ale)
I mentioned that there were quite a few MCRAEs in 'Fernlay', Bracadale in the 1841 census for Bracadale and I referred to Piece 109, ED 5.
Note: 94% of the Inverness-shire, and 100% of Ross & Cromarty, are on FreeCEN.
I mentioned that there is a locality called 'Castle' in the 1841 census for Portree. I said that it was surely on the Island of Raasay and came after Screpdale - on Raasay, modern spelling apparently Screapadal - and before two localities on the Isle of Skye; I did not mention - though noticed - that Screpdale followed Hallaig (on Raasay). Incidentally, there were GILLIES people and MCRAE people on Raasay in the 1841 census. I said that Castle probably was a reference to the area of the (ruined) Brochel Castle on the Island of Raasay.
I gave the following reference (which, of course, mentions the Clearances):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raasay
I'm still puzzling over the initials G.T. after Duncan's name. Gaelic Talker? Well, one might expect Gaelic Speaker - and no doubt everyone spoke Gaelic at that time! Gaelic Teacher ? Who knows - it could be anything.
On this current thread I did manage to find an appropriate Duncan GILLES and wife Margaret (with three presumed children) in the 1841 census at Caldui (sic), Applecross.
The age of the eldest child fitted with a dob for the couple married in 1831 (obvious - so I did not specifically draw attention to that).
And I also found 4 GILLIES children b Applecross in the IGI with parents Duncan/Duncun GILLIES & Margaret/Mary MCRAE - 1832 to 1841 - three of whom are with them in the 1841 census. Unfortunately I found no records for children to those parents after 1841 (yes, there are some records in Applecross for girls named Marjory but none for a Marjory GILLIES and no Duncan GILLIES/Margaret MCRAE children at all after 1841).
I also gave the following references (there are others):
http://www.geocities.com/bjgillies/
http://www.geocities.com/bjgillies/history2.html
which refer to Culduie (sic) Cottage and indicate that GILLIES people have been there since 1837.
I hope that the above adequately summarizes the salient facts to date.
But, most unfortunately  none of the above has resulted (to date) in the finding the birth/baptism of Marjory GILLIES (perhaps it will never be found) or in finding her in the 1851 or 1861 censuses or in finding the 1841 Applecross GILLES family in the 1851 or 1861 censuses.
So I still think that a post on the General Scotland board for lookups for the 1841 GILLES/GILLIES in 1851/1861 (or later) would be worth a try.
Who knows what fresh pairs of eyes might find!
After all, it was pure serendipity that I happened to notice your 'interpretation' post and then looked at your other posts. And that was the only reason that Duncan GILLIES & Margaret MCRAE have been found in Applecross in 1841 
All the best,
JAP
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: Friday 26 October 07 21:59 UTC (UK) by Little Nell »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10439
Nate at 9 weeks
|
Hi Steve,
I thought I would take a look about and see if I can spot anything. It would appear (by the 1861 entry) that the Duncan and Margaret found by JAP in 1841 are in fact Duncan GILLIES and Margaret McRAE. I see the family in 1851 and 1861, but alas no daughter Marjory, although we do now have Mary aged 6 in 1851 (I think she may be a servant in Kiltarlity Inverness in the 1861 census - Mary GILLES aged 16 b Applecross - farmer servant)
1851 Census
Culdine
Applecross
GILLIES Margt Head 45 b Applecross Farmer of 3 acres
GILLIES Christy Dau 15 b Applecross Farmers Dau
GILLIES Janet Dau 9 b Applecross Scholar
GILLIES Mary Dau 6 b Applecross
1861 census
Culdue
Applecross
GILLIES Margaret Head 55 b Applecross Crofter
McRAE Isabella Visitor 53 b Applecross Crofter's sister
Good Luck............Kris 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
|
Hi Kris,
Wow! Great finds 
But it raises/strengthens another problem - and I was in the middle of typing a post about that when you posted your absolutely terrific census finds.
Namely, are Duncan & Margaret the same couple as the couple who married in 1831??
This had been nagging at me because of the R&C birthplace of the Applecross couple in the 1841. I'd wondered whether the R&C birthplace could be wrong given the parentage Steve had posted so I was going to ask Steve whether he had proof of that parentage. The forename of Margaret (Mary in one of the IGI births) in Applecross was also a concern vis-a-vis the forename Marion/Maron of the 1831 marriage.
Now your census finds show that Margaret was born in Applecross (Steve had her as being born in Bracadale ...).
It looks very much as though the Applecross couple is not the same as the couple who married in 1831 Bracadale/Portree. I'll think about this some more 
On the positive side, one would have to think that your Mary aged 6 in 1851 is Steve's Marjory.
As I recall Gadget said that Marjory was 22 on her 1870 marriage certificate; ah well, she wouldn't be the first bride to have fibbed about, or been unsure of, her age.
And, as Gadget suggested, it looks as though she did change her name to Marjory later in life.
Best regards,
JAP
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10439
Nate at 9 weeks
|
Hi JAP,
I am way out of my area up here, but obviously did wonder about Mary/Marjory.
What was Marjory's age at death in 1925 Steve?
When I chase this couple after marriage I find
1871: Angus 24, Margory 22 (Applecross)
1881: Angus 33, Margary 32 (Applecross)
1891: Angus 42, Marjory 41 (Applecross)
1901: Angus 52, Marjory 51 (Manhely)
Anyway I shall leave the Scottish Researchers to carry on, as I tend to get rather lost up here and head back down south
Do hope someone is able to work on with it............. Kris
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
|
A possible (IGI) birth/baptism for Margaret (MCRAE) GILLIES?
Margt. MCRAE, bap 9 Mar 1804 Applecross, parents Donald MCRAE & Marjory MCBEATH.
The only other child recorded to these parents is:
John MCRAE, bap 5 Feb 1816 Applecross
Donald MCRAE m Marjory MACBETH, 25 Jan 1803, Applecross
(If Margaret's mother's name was Marjory, that could explain where the name 'Marjory' came from for Steve's lady?)
JAP
PS: Aw Kris, don't go ...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
|
I wonder whether Isabella MCRAE, Margaret's sister aged 53 in the 1861, was a real sister or loosely used for a sister-in-law.
If Isabella was in Applecross in 1841, I found a couple of ?possibilities.
1. For a possible sister-in-law (though age too high):
At Ardislaig, Applecross
MACRAE Duncan 41 Farmer
" Isabella 36
" Farchquer (sic) 9
" Colin 7
MACBEATH Donald 21 Male Servant
MACDONALD Anabella 20 Female Servant
All born R&C
2. For a possible sister (though age too low) this rather interesting (given the spread of surnames - MACRAE, GILLES and MACBETH) family.
At Achantraad, Applecross
MACRAE Donald 60 Crofter
" Angus 20
" Martha 55
" Bell 25
GILLES Martha 3
MACBETH Thomas 10
MACRAE Finlay 30 Male Servant
All born R&C
I guess it wouldn't take a great leap of the imagination (well, perhaps it would!) to turn Martha MACRAE 55 into Marjory MACRAE? And Martha GILLES 3 into Marsal (male) GILLIES, parents Duncun GILLIES & Margaret MACRAE, bap 12 Aug 1838, Applecross?
JAP
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10439
Nate at 9 weeks
|
Hi again JAP,
OK I have been having another look and I too have been trying to chase Isabella. That 41 entry you posted had me very curious also, particularly as one of the possible Isabellas is residing with brother Finlay in 1851. (Bell aged 25) and 1 Martha Gelles in the household. I think that is an important image to see (I did see a third Isabel aged 30 wife of Alexander MacRae Esq in 1841.)
1851 I see 4
1. aged 41 b Applecross Brother of Finlay 37 (Gen Servant)
2. aged 45 b Gairloch Wife of Duncan
3. aged 46 b Applecross Head MALE residing with sisters Flora 50 Chirsty 56 (Pauper ag lab) 
4. aged 48 b Applecross Sister in Law to Norman aged 40 (Invalid supported by brother in Law)
Now 1861 Duncan and Isabella are still together, (Isabella b Inverbain) so she can be eliminated, besides her the only other Isabella in Applecross is the sister residing with Margaret.
Kris
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
|
Hi Kris,
Glad you are still here! I can't see your Isabel 30 wife of Alexander MCRAE Esq in the 1841 on FreeCEN (R&C is supposed to be complete).
I like the one with brother Finlay  Perhaps Bell put her age down in 1841 and 1851 - but when she was recorded by elder sister Margaret in 1861, Margaret wasn't having any of it and might also have insisted on using Bell's 'Sunday' name.
Hi All,
Finally back to the 1831 marriage of a Duncan GILLES/GILLIES and a Marion/Maron MCRAE/MACRAE.
On the plus side it is the only marriage in the IGI of a Duncan GILL(I)ES to a female M(A)CRAE in Scotland. But, as is pretty obvious, record-keeping seems to have been pretty spasmodic so there may well have been other GILL(I)ES/M(A)CRAE marriages around the right time.
Also on the plus side, there are no births of children in Scotland in the IGI to a Duncan GILL(I)ES and a Marion/Maron M(A)CRAE - but there are the Applecross births to a Duncan GILL(I)ES and a Margaret M(A)CRAE. But again, there may well have been other unrecorded births.
However, trying to squeeze the couple of the 1831 marriage and the couple of the 1841 (and Margaret in 1851 and 1861) census together does raise lots of questions including (to my mind) the following:
* would it be likely for Duncan (born R&C) to go to live on the Island of Raasay, Inverness-shire (location at time of 1831 marriage), marry a girl living in Bracadale, and then return to R&C (Applecross) to live (admittedly Applecross is just across a stretch of water from Raasay)?
* would it be likely for Margaret (born Applecross, R&C) to go to live in 'Ferrinlea' (Fernilea), Bracadale Inverness-shire (location at the time of 1831 marriage - and considerably further away from Applecross than Raasay), marry a chap living on Raasay, and then return to Applecross?
* why would Margaret from Applecross marry as Marion/Maron given that her likely birth is as Margaret, and given that she is consistently Margaret in 1841, 1851 and 1861, and given that her daughter 'Marjory' gives her name as Margaret?
* there is a more likely candidate than Margaret b Applecross for the 1831 marriage, namely Marion MAC RAE, bap 13 Feb 1809, Bracadale, Inverness-shire, parents Alexr. MAC RAE & Marion GILLES.
I guess several things, if they could be found, could help to resolve the matter including:
* finding a Duncan GILL(I)ES & wife Marion/Maron in the 1841 and later censuses
* finding the death of Margaret GILL(I)ES, nee M(A)CRAE, of Applecross. She was still alive in 1861 and her dc should list her parents
* finding the death of a Marion GILL(I)ES, nee M(A)CRAE (I can't; though a free search on SP, refining the parameters, finds the death in 1862 of what is probably the mother of the Bracadale Marion - name Marion, district Bracadale, age 76, surnames MCRAE and GILLIES listed).
JAP
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
krisesjoint
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10439
Nate at 9 weeks
|
Hi again Folks,
I am afraid I have little to report. I have tried to find this Duncan and Marion in Inverness to no avail. There is a Marion Gillis in Bracadale but she is only 14. (1841) There is a Marrion Gilles aged 45 in Harris in a household containing a Duncan 65 and Neil 50 (others aged 20 down) I cannot see any candidates for this particular couple in any census. We do have a couple of other Duncan and Margarets in other counties, but no sign of this couple.
Like you JAP I have to wonder about the marriage and why they are out of county and why she would be Marion when most other sitings of this lady list her as Margaret. (Now remember there is the possible baptism for John where mother lists as Mary, curious since in English records we would see Marion/Mary Ann. If this Inverness Couple was not the Applecross couple, perhaps this Inverness couple died or emigrated, I certainly don't see them anywhere. One thing I do wonder about is this 1831 marriage. Will the full entry be likely to contain any extra information, such as that they were not from Inverness?
Also can a baptism be found for Mary in about 1845. Wondering if by chance she may have had more than one Christian name (probably not I guess since the ones on the IGI only have 1 name) but worth looking.
I can't see Margaret Gillies in 1871 so presume she died 1861-1871. Do hope a death can be found for her.
JAP you are keeping me on my toes here.
Good Luck Steve. I look forward to hearing of your progress here with this.
Regards Kris
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24439
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
|
Hi kris and JAP
I've been looking for the baptism of Mary/Marion/Marjory off and on all day - but nothing vey promising. It is all very strange. The Clearances were at there height in Wester Ross* in the period that we are looking at. I've explored a Margaret Gillies, Bracadale but can't see that she fits in either.
Gadget
Added -
* and Skye, i should have said. I've got masses of books and papers on this period in this area but they are all in my Rossshire home 
Also - I'm a bit concerned about the 1861 Mary in kiltarlity. This is on the east side close to Inverness itself. To get from Applecross in those days would have involved either a boat to Fort William and up the Great Glen or over the Beallach nan Bo (spelling from memory) which is a very step and rugged track (now a road). She then has to move from Kiltarlity to Glasgow by late 1860s.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Little Nell
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7256
|
I don't know if this is relevant and I can't see it being mentioned anywhere (but I have to confess my eyes are hurting this evening), but Marsal/Marsail is the Gaelic form of Marjory.
The IGI has the baptism of a Marsal to the parents Duncan Gillies and Margaret McRae in Applecross in 1838. I know it says male, but has the OPR entry been checked.
Is it possible that she shaved 10 years off her life? It sounds a lot, but she would not be the first lady from the west of Scotland who has done this - I have a couple of examples (sisters admittedly).
Only a thought.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24439
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
|
Good one, Nell. The first one might have died and the 1851 Mary could have been bpt Marsal. Will check SP
Added - the 1838 one is the only one from 1838 to 1854. In the1871, Angus, her husband is 24 and she is down at 22, so it would be quite plausible to chop off some years.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24439
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
|
Has anyone checked the birth of her last child yet?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Little Nell
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7256
|
I see that someone had spotted it - and the Martha Gilles aged 3 in Applecross in the house of Donald McRae at Achintraid (?). I can't find a baptism for her Pity Achintraid is quite such a way from Culdui. But there again, Applecross never was particularly crowded.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
