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Topic: Logan Lee (Read 732 times)
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dipsys dad
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Logan Lee
« on: Tuesday 16 October 07 00:10 BST (UK) » |
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Can anyone shed light on an English Gypsy who is buried in Cathcart Old Parish Churchyard in Glasgow? His name was Logan Lee, and he died on 25.09.1873 aged 12 years old. According to his gravestone, he was the son of John and Lavithon Lee, and grandson of Elizabeth Smith (whose death is recorded on the stone, so is she in there as well)? I noticed the grave as a child and was curious as to what happened to him, as well as the fact that he was buried in a Church of Scotland kirkyard. My curiosity is still unfulfilled,so hopefully someone out there can help close the case after quite a few years. Thanks.
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An65
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 16 October 07 19:19 BST (UK) » |
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I can tell you some of his family history, but not how he died, Im afraid.
He was indeed the son of John Lee and Leviathon Heron. He was on the document written by the Revd George Hall and stored in the Journals Of The Gypsy Lore Society called the Heron Pedigree.
His grandmothers name on there was given as Emmanaia Smith who married Big Frank" Heron. (not a big a jump from Emmanaia to Elizabeth really in Romany terms, especially not if they anglicised her name). According to that document his brother was Nathan Lee.
Here they are on the 1861 census (list of persons not in houses) Nth Woolwich Road, East Ham, Ex
John Lee 35 Horse Dealer Wisbeach Lin
Leviathan Lee 29 Lynn Nfk
Nathan Lee 7 b.Wanstead Flats, Ex
Logan Lee 1 b.Norwich Nfk
Leviathan was also briefly married to Bui Boss, s/o Ambrose and Penny and he (Bui) was also married to Eldorai Jane Boswell.
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An65
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 16 October 07 21:13 BST (UK) » |
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I could add, that Emmanaia Smiths mother was reputedly Sibella Smith, from a liason with a man who was always known as "No Name" Heron. In adulthood he was baptised with the name Edward. The reason behind this oddity was recorded as follows:
The parents took him to church to be baptised, and the vicar asked them what name he was to give the baby, and they said they wanted him to be called Jehovah. The vicar refused to give the child the name of God himself, and so the parents walked out of the church saying "very well, he shall be called No-Name". It is possible God got the last laugh. On the 5th August 1831, the family and that of his relative Tiso Boswells, were camped at Tetford, Lincs, during a bad storm. Tiso and No Name went into a barn to find straw to keep their tents dry, and the barn itsself, and the poor men inside it, were struck by lightening. Both Tiso and No Name were killed outright. They are buried together, with a gravestone bearing their names (Edward Heron not No Name I might add), at Tetford Churchyard.
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dipsys dad
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 17 October 07 00:21 BST (UK) » |
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Thanks indeed for the information. You are right about his brother being Nathan;
I had forgotten about that. I did not think such a good record existed, after all it was a long time ago!
Anyway, you have shed light on a 40 year old personal mystery, and for that I thank you. Perhaps, in time, we will find out the story behind his death. Cheers!
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An65
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 17 October 07 08:08 BST (UK) » |
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My pleasure to help!
You wouldnt happen to have any details on the dates of Emmanaia (Elizabeth) Smith or Nathan etc deaths would you??
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dipsys dad
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 17 October 07 19:58 BST (UK) » |
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Elizabeth's dates are on the gravestone, but apart from Logan that's it. It is not a conventional grave marker in that it is the length and breadth of the plot, and is a smoothed off triangle in shape, about 12-15" high. Unfortunately, I very seldom get to that part of the world these days, so I can't help just now, but I will bear it in mind.
Given that the kirkyard is close to Hampden Park, a visit is a possibility, but we'll need to see.
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An65
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 17 October 07 23:36 BST (UK) » |
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Thank you anyway, and if you do happen to visit, Id be very grateful for those dates.
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CitizenSmith
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 17 January 08 17:54 GMT (UK) » |
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Logan Lee belongs to the same East Anglian Smith family group that I'm descended from so I've done some work on family members over the years.
I've seen a drawing of Logan Lee's monument in a book called In Gipsy Tents by Francis Hindes Groome - which was published in 1880 - and so was interested to read that it's still in existence.
In the illustration, the tomb appears to be like a large open book. Another member of the same family - John Cooper - also has a gravestone nearby. The text accompanying the illustration says that Logan was "the beloved son of John and Levithan Lee and brother of Nathan Lee and grandson of Elijah Smith" - which reads like the inscription although it's not identified as such.
The following description is also included, apparently written by the artist in 1874:
"..the burial ground is very neatly laid out. ornamented with the traditional cypress and yew. The tombstones are executed in an excellent style, and the ground is enclosed with an exceedingly handsome cast-iron railing - the design vine-leaves and gilt clusters of grapes; the whole giving one the idea of a burial place of some substantial and well-to-do citizen of the neighbouring town of Glasgow."
Does it look anything like that now?
Can't help on the cause of death for Logan. I've had several attempts at finding his death certificate both in the death certs for Scotland and for England but haven't tracked him down yet.
Logan's grandmother Elizabeth Smith isn't buried with him at Cathcart but in Flaybrick Cemetery, Birkenhead. She has a large monument there (...or 'had': my reference comes from 1909) which states that she died 5 January 1883 aged 76 years. The burial records for Flaybrick state she was brought to Birkenhead from Huddersfield for burial. Two other Smith grandsons share her tomb - one of whom was brought there from the Isle of Man.
Logan's mother, Leviathan Smith or Buckley, died 23 December 1881 at Bothwell Park, Bellahill (?), Bothwell, Lanarkshire, aged 52, of apoplexy. Her Scottish death cert gives her parents' names as Elijah Buckley and Elizabeth Smith. Her husband John Lee is still alive at that time.
Nathan Lee, Logan's brother, also died in Scotland. His death cert records that he died in the Public Park, Denny, Stirlingshire, on 29 April 1909 of Phthisis Pulmonaris (think that's TB). He's described as a Travelling Horse Dealer, married to Ada Whatnell, son of John Lee (deceased) and Levithan Lee (born Smith) (deceased).
Hope this clarifies a few things.
Sharon
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Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
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dipsys dad
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 17 January 08 21:52 GMT (UK) » |
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Thanks for your message, but it's bad news on the churchyard, though! As far as I know it was always surrounded by a white sandstone wall about 7 feet high. There are steel railings on the farthest side from the road, but they were built in the 70's when the original wall collapsed. There is also a small stone watch house
(against grave robbers) made of the same material as the walls, so they have been there a while! The church itself was closed and demolished in the 1930's, (a new, bigger building being built across the road) and the churchyard was more or less left to get on with it.
Now, to Logan's grave. I am looking at a photo of it as I write (taken about 5 years ago) and it is a ground marker being about 6 feet long, and is about 2-3 feet high, in a 'hogback' style. (That is, curved sides coming to a slight ridge running the length of the stone.) I can't remember what kind of stone it is, but it's grey, and pretty solid. The inscription, running from east to west on the northern side is as you say, except for Grandma, who is named as Elizabeth Smith. There is also a corrected error on the stone, but I can't remember where. The other side of the stone has Elizabeth Smith's dates, but that's all.
Unfortunately, today, the stone is sinking into the ground and is covered in moss, with a lot of humus and other detritus helping the process along. However, there is a young tree (about 45 years old now) growing from under the stone which I always thought was rather nice.
As for the cemetery itself, It has been vandalised to the ground, and is now an eyesore. I am new to this computer thing, and can't yet do attachments, so I'll go just now, and continue on a new post. More to come!
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dipsys dad
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 17 January 08 22:04 GMT (UK) » |
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Right, back again. As I was saying, over the past 20-30 years the churchyard has been vandalised to the ground. Most of the remaining upright markers have been taken away for safety reasons, and the horizontal ones are a mess of broken glass and syringes.
Enough, however of that. I am curious about the description of Logan's grave as a book. That is the last thing it look's like!
You also mention a John Cooper being buried nearby. I remember the stone being there, as it was pointed out to me by the minister many years ago, but, sadly, it is long gone. However, the name on it was definitely Robert Cooper.
Have we got the same person? He was, along with Logan, frequently mentioned as a Gypsy, but nobody knew any more, until now.
Well, that's about it. Thanks a million for your help, and I hope I have helped you a wee bit too.
Cheers, John.
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leeboy
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #11 on: Friday 18 January 08 12:42 GMT (UK) » |
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hi everyone' im fully related to the Lee's that you are righting about' they still live in scotland now' years ago the did tell queen victoirs fortune and also won 10 gold meddals for fourtun telling we have many privet photo's of the people your speaking about' but as its family i cant put them on'.. but it woud be good to know who your are if you are related to them them you are related to my family'' all the best!!
http://gypsyleeboy.tripod.com/
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leeboy
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #13 on: Friday 18 January 08 14:07 GMT (UK) » |
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Hi sharon. i wish you were next door to me lol' there is so much i could show you and tell you about these people'.
some are my grt grany and grandad or auntys or cousons lol'
the boswels lees ' herons ' winter' young' robson' smiths' shaws' that you are related to still are one big family. some live in scotland and some in blackpool.. i would love to show you some photo's but my family wont even let me put them on my website lol. you see some of my auntys and uncles are in ther 90's and the old people are still there close family'..
i have a full couson who is direct line back to logon lee' ther is picturs with them with queen victoria and pantings of wagons at the castile..im sorry i cant put stuf on but as i say its family stuff..all the very best..
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dipsys dad
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Re: Logan Lee
« Reply #14 on: Friday 18 January 08 17:21 GMT (UK) » |
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Re the parish kirk records. Well, they used to live in the manse, but since that is now flats I inquired into the Church of Scotland in Edinburgh. They told me that all parish registers, burial records, etc, are lodged in Register House in Edinburgh. Unfortunately they are not on line (yet) so I'm afraid this means a somewhat expensive trip to the Capital to get a hold of them.
Cheers,
John.
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