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Topic: Helen Irvine - Brechin (Read 207 times)
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AnnieOZ
RootsChat Member
 Offline
Posts: 120
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Rowana
Have found (what I believe to be) your Helen Irvine in several census'. Haven't had time to go back further than 1871 but if this info ties in with any of your other records, let me know and I'll dig a little deeper for you.
Helen/Ellen (these names are interchangeable) appears to have been born in Menmuir, Forfarshire abt 1856 to William & Isabel Irvine. She had a number of siblings and what appears to be a number of children to several different fathers (Oh the skeletons we uncover  )
1871 Census:
Address: 32 Montrose St
William IRVINE; Head, aged 60.
Isabel IRVINE; Wife, aged 48
Martha IRVINE; Daughter, aged 30
George BENNETT, aged 5, son of Martha
Alexander GOLD, aged 11, son of Martha
Matilda IRVINE; Daughter, aged 24
Charles IRVINE; Son, aged 17
Helen IRVINE; Daughter, aged 15
George IRVINE; Son, aged 13
1881 Census
Address: 26 Montrose St
Ellen IRVINE; Head, aged 25
David WALLACE, aged 7, son of Ellen
William MOUATT, aged 5, son of Ellen
Allan DONNETT, aged 1, son of Ellen
Helen LOCKHART; Boarder, aged 20
Jessie COOK; Boarder, aged 22
Lawrence COOK, aged 1mnth, son of Jessie
Also living at the same address is Helen's sister, Martha with her 2 sons, George BENNETT & Alexander GOLD.
1891 Census
Have found what I believe to be Helen's children, Allan Donnett (now listed as IRVINE), aged 13 & James IRVINE, aged 11 living in the Dundee Industrial School for Boys.
Have also found a possible match for Helen living at 17 Castle St with a James Bell & another child, Isabella IRVINE, aged 1.
Sorry have to stop now, but as I said , let me know if you want me to continue on this line & I'd be happy to.
Cheers
Annie
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Lynch, Dundee; Scotland. Armagh; Ireland
Wallace, Dundee/Arbroath; Scotland
Hendrie, Armagh;Ireland
Nielson/Nelson; South Australia
Johnston; South Australia
Brown; South Australia
Terrell; Cornwall
Angove; Cornwall
Trengove; Cornwall
Wilson; Cumberland, Durham
Reay; Cumberland
Barwise; Cumberland
Weiler/Wheeler; Luxembourg, South Australia
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AnnieOZ
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 120
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again Rowana
Have followed up further with my previous info and found a little more on Helen.
According to IGI Helen was born Helen Carnegy IRVINE on 8th June 1855 in Menmuir and also found the birth of another sibling Annie Anderson IRVINE on 10th September 1859 (also in Menmuir).
Have also looked at the 1841 - 1861 census':
1841 Census
Address: Tigerton. Menmuir parish.
William IRVINE, Head, Ag. Laborer, aged 30
Isabell IRVINE, aged 25
Robert IRVINE, aged 4
William IRVINE, aged 2
Martha IRVINE, aged 6 mnths
1851 Census
Address: Ireland (??)
William IRVINE, Head, Ag Laborer, aged 42
Isabell IRVINE, aged 36
Martha IRVINE, aged 9
Matilda IRVINE, aged 5
(no listing for Robert or William Jnr.......perhaps they died?)
1861 Census
Address: Trinity Rd, Brechin Burgh
William IRVINE, Head, Laborer, aged 52
Isabella, aged 44
Martha IRVINE, aged 20
Alexr GOLD, aged 1, son of Martha
Matilda IRVINE, aged 14
Charles IRVINE, aged 7
Helen IRVINE, aged 5
George IRVINE, aged 4
Ann IRVINE, aged 1
Hope this helps some.
Cheers
Annie
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Lynch, Dundee; Scotland. Armagh; Ireland
Wallace, Dundee/Arbroath; Scotland
Hendrie, Armagh;Ireland
Nielson/Nelson; South Australia
Johnston; South Australia
Brown; South Australia
Terrell; Cornwall
Angove; Cornwall
Trengove; Cornwall
Wilson; Cumberland, Durham
Reay; Cumberland
Barwise; Cumberland
Weiler/Wheeler; Luxembourg, South Australia
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Rowana
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 115
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Annie,
I posted a reply yesterday to your first message, but it seems to have got lost somewhere???
Anyway, this all ties in with what I've got so far.
James Irvine was my Grandfather, and Helen was his mother. I have James's birth certificate which gives his birth address as 26 Montrose St, Brechin. My Father was David Wallace Irvine, so it would appear that he was named after James's half brother.
My Dad didn't speak much about his family at all, perhaps we can see why, and I don't think he ever knew where his name came from. Certainly my Mother didn't know when I asked her. She did say that Helen was a bit of a character, and had several children to different fathers.
I never knew my Grandfather as he died in 1934 age 52, which was long before I was born.
I don't know about the Dundee Industrial school either. I've never heard of this from anyone in the family before. My Dad did say that his Dad was working in a mill in Montrose, but ran away to join the Army. I was told that he served in the Boer war, and also WW1, but I've no idea which regiment he was in or anything else. I know he worked on the railway after he came out of the army, and moved from Montrose to St Cyrus when my Dad was abot 12, so that must have been about 1923 or there about.
I've attached a picture (if this works) of James Irvine & his Wife, Susan Jane Stronner. My Dad looked very much like him, and I'm afraid I have inherited the same lack of hair on top!
Thanks very much for all the information. It's great that I'm getting information from the other side of the world. I've found out some info about my Mothers side from Canada and USA ! !
There was some of my Dad's relatives went out there at one point. I think that they went to a place called Morwell in Victoria, but I don't know much else. I can just remember as a small boy, 2 couples coming to visit us and being told that they were Dads relatives home on holidy from Oz.
Thanks again,
Cheers
Jim
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Irvine Gove Watt Stronner
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AnnieOZ
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 120
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Jim
There appears to be some problems with Rootscaht at the moment as I posted another reply yesterday which seems to have gone missing also!!
Anyway, glad I could help in your quest to find out more about your ggrandmother. Yes, she does seem to have been a bit of a character but don't worry, you're not alone.......I think we've all found family skeleton's in our quest to find out more about our ancestors, myself included! It makes them more interesting and human, doesn't it?
Just out of curiosity, you don't happen to know who the father of David WALLACE was do you? (Your grandfather's half brother). It's just that we have 2 surnames of common interest. I have a missing WALLACE relative who appears to have done a runner on his wife & child abt 1858 in Arbroath......his name was David Wallace also and additionally, one of his sisters married a Horatio Ross WATT in 1854 in Arbroath.
Wouldn't it be funny if our families were connected??
In Australia, we are able to research our rellies war service records online and I'm sure there must be a site in Scotland to do the same so you can track James. Perhaps some other Rootschatter could help with this part. (When I get some time I'll have a go at it for you if you like?)
Also, if you want to give me some info, I'll try to check your Oz rellies for you.
Cheers for now
Annie
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Lynch, Dundee; Scotland. Armagh; Ireland
Wallace, Dundee/Arbroath; Scotland
Hendrie, Armagh;Ireland
Nielson/Nelson; South Australia
Johnston; South Australia
Brown; South Australia
Terrell; Cornwall
Angove; Cornwall
Trengove; Cornwall
Wilson; Cumberland, Durham
Reay; Cumberland
Barwise; Cumberland
Weiler/Wheeler; Luxembourg, South Australia
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Rowana
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 115
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Annie,
I don't know who David Wallace's father was. In fact I didn't even know of his existance until you posted the message! As I said, my Father never spoke much about his family.
I don't know much of my rellies in Oz either. All I know is that they live, or lived, in Morwell in Victoria. I can remember as a small boy that some folk came to visit us one time, and I was told that they were Dad's rellies from Oz. This must have been sometime between 1953 & 1958 as we lived in different places before & after these dates. I have a postcard that they sent from Aden on their way back to Oz. It's signed as "Uncle Tom, Aunty Verna (I think), Susan & Uncle Dave". They also sent me one of their ship, SS Orion of the Orient Line, 24,000 tons.
Not a lot to go on, is it.
Cheers
Jim
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Irvine Gove Watt Stronner
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ev
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1143
TIA after her op. (clothes by "NIKKI")
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hi jim
don't know if you have this already but
1901 census 11 queen st montrose
helen bell age 39(!) born memuir flax spinner
isabella irvine age 11 born montrose
on the 1891 census it was 17 castle st. montrose angus
also possible death for helen irvine 1926 montrose angus
born 1855 + or - 1 year on scotlandspeople
can't see a marriage to a james bell
james irvine married susan stronner 31st dec 1908 montrose
and had at least 3 kids
susanna b 24th oct(?) 1909
david b 4th april 1911
john b 30th ? 1914 (? - hard to read)
looks like he served in the boer war and first world war
according to his service records.
ev
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Rowana
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 115
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Also, had some luck with James Irvine's war service records on Ancestry.com.
He enlisted with the Scottish Rifles Corp on 5th January 1899...I have quite a bit of further info that I will send to you in a personal message tomorrow.
You didn't mention the WATT connection in your family....do you have much info on this side? It would be interesting if we have a connection there.
Annie,
I'm not sure if that's the correct James Irvine. My Father said that his dad was in the Boer War, but I'm not sure of the dates. I have his marriage certificate which gives his occupation as "Railway Surfaceman". He married my Grandmother, Susan Jane Stronner on 31st December 1908 in Montrose. My Father also said that his Dad was in the first world war, so did he join the army twice?
Questions, questions!
I can only go on what my Dad told me, and he said that his Dad was working in a mill in Montrose, and ran away to join the Army. Perhaps he did, and went to South Africa to fight in the Boer War, got demobbed and went to work on the railway, then was called up again for WW1. Could this be correct, I wonder.
The Watt connection is on my Mother's side. My Great Grandfather was a Thrift Watt who was a saddler in Stonehaven, and was born in Fordyce or Portsoy, Banffshire around 1829. He was married twice. His first wife was Isabella Lees, who was born about 1835 and died in 1867. He then married Agnes Ann Dorian who had originated in Ireland. I know a fair bit about this side of the family. Do you thing there is any connection?
Cheers
Jim
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Irvine Gove Watt Stronner
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Rowana
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 115
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi jim
don't know if you have this already but
1901 census 11 queen st montrose
helen bell age 39(!) born memuir flax spinner
isabella irvine age 11 born montrose
on the 1891 census it was 17 castle st. montrose angus
also possible death for helen irvine 1926 montrose angus
born 1855 + or - 1 year on scotlandspeople
can't see a marriage to a james bell
james irvine married susan stronner 31st dec 1908 montrose
and had at least 3 kids
susanna b 24th oct(?) 1909
david b 4th april 1911
john b 30th ? 1914 (? - hard to read)
looks like he served in the boer war and first world war
according to his service records.
Hi ev,
This is great. Where can I find my Grandfathers service records? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm new to this game!
You're correct in James marrying Susan Jane Stronner in Montrose on the 31st december 1908. They actually had 5 children, but 2 of the boys died of flu in about 1919 or thereabouts.
Nan (Susanna?) was my Dad's elder sister, but they didn't get on at all. I think I only met Nan twice in my life, and was never in her house. She married a Frank Mowatt, and they had about 5 children. I met one of them once, but know nothing of the others.
Dad had a younger sister, Nellie Mary Grant Irvine, who subsequently had a Son, David (Wallace, possibly) Irvine, then married an Ed Mackie around 1950ish.
The David born on 4 April 1911 was my Dad. He died in 1980.
Thanks for all this help
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Irvine Gove Watt Stronner
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ev
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1143
TIA after her op. (clothes by "NIKKI")
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hi jim
as annie mentioned james irvines service records are available
on ancestry.com which is a paysite which also contains census
records for scotland
on the records his next of kin is helen irvine 11 queen st montrose
from memory i think he re-enlisted at the outbreak of ww1
annie will probably tell you all about his service records in her
personal message
ev
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JamesAndSusanJane.jpg