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Topic: Annan - an elusive seaman (Read 4074 times)
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kenjo
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Hi E,
So pleased you have told us more ...
I wonder if Helen...Elliot / Gardiner....is John (the Captain) and Ann Shennan's child..
Remember in the 1871c...there was an Ellen, born England. living with Isabella and her husband.
There was a gap in births for Ann Shennan...so Ann may have visited England after having Joseph...and before having Sarah Margaret.
Anyway the only answer is to buy the Marriage of....David Gardiner and Helen Elliot...Annan. 1890.
For the Sea Captain has most likely another child...being Helen..
Another thing I have noticed ...is the apparent devotion to the women who raise the children.
These girls haven't been promiscuous.....yet married late...right after their mother died...and in Sarah Margaret's case...when her Aunt died.
Have the men they married ......waited in the wings for their sweethearts to finally agree to marriage.....Is this another clue to the love and respect these women had for their family..
Jo
I just thought I should look for the Gardiner Family in the 1901c.
7 Scott St, Annan.
David Gardiner, Head, 36yrs, Journeyman Tailor, born Ruthwell, Dumfries.
Helen Gardiner, 37yrs, England
John Elliot Gardiner, son, 9yrs, Annan
David Gardiner, son, 5yrs, Annan
It is looking good.....
Helen Gardiner ...or Elliot died 1925 Annan.
and
John Elliot Gardiner married Agnes Jane Wilson....1926...Annan..
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Fear na mara
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Once again Jo’s sure intuition and forensic eye spots the clues and swoops on the next layer of the family. Helen’s marriage to David Gardiner pushes us forward but I notice that there is no detail of David Gardiner’s father on the marriage certificate.
But we have their son, aged 34, John Elliot Gardiner, grocer’s assistant and even his marriage in 1926 in the Erskine United Free Church of Scotland to fisherman’s daughter, Agnes Wilson, who has been a tailor’s machinist in Annan –The Gardiner, Tailor and Clothier business perhaps.
Joseph Elliot (Cap’n John’s brother) moved down to Egremont in Cumberland where he – late as usual- married Ann McMillan. And it was while at Moor Row that they prepared their wills.
Joseph died 11/01/1899 leaving the income from his investments to his wife and after her death to his sister Isabella. Jo’s feelings about Isabella are confirmed again here – as Joseph had a number of relatives to whom he might bequeath. We learn that he owns a couple of cottages in Annan and has been receiving rent – but his other investments are poor, his ship shares having declined in value and his “loan” looking like a forlorn hope, reduced to 2/6 in the £.
The surprise is that he leaves ½ his freeholds – in the fullness of time- to his “putative” son Andrew, who is a Clerk at Rowanburn Colliery, Canonbie. To my innocent mind putative son suggests one not listed in the regular family.
I looked at the 1901 census - 13 Watchhill, Canonbie
Elizabeth Scott, Head M 66 Gamekeeper's wife born Dum. Canonbie
Andrew Elliot, son, S, 44, Clerk at Colliery, born Dum. Canonbie
Now how do I interpret that ?
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Elliot, Baverstock, Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe
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kenjo
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Hi Fear na mara,
This is a little tricky....{I must add I hadn't realised that that Elizabeth Scott ...said in the 1901c that she was a game keepers wife......untill I had posted this ....how dumb am I }
In the 1891 census. same address as the 1901c
Watchhill Canonbie...
Andrew Elliot, Head, 35yrs, Clerk, Canonbie.
Elizabeth Scott. mother, 55 yrs, Canonbie....
I looked for a birth of an Andrew...with Elizabeth Scott...as mother..
the only suitable ones were...an Andrew Scott born 21/7/1855 Stow Midlothan..with only the mother listed ....Betsy Scott.
the other one was
Andrew Scott 23/5/1857 Dryfesdale Dumfries...to a married couple....
The first one was a possible....sort of...{but dismiss}
anyway I looked up the
1861Census
Watchhill, Canonbie
Jane Armstrong, Head, 67yrs, Canonbie.
Mary Armstrong dau, 43yrs, Farm Labourer.
Andrew Elliot, grandson, 5yrs, Canonbie....
So with this info....Andrew Elliot's mother should be Elizabeth Armstrong..
and there is an
Andrew Armstrong born 22/1/1856 ..Canonbie...mother Elizabeth Armstrong.
so Andrew was illegitamate....but his mother told him who his father was and so took up his fathers name....and would have been financially supported...most likely.
Now this is where it does get tricky....and this is my interpretation...I could be wrong though.
Elizabeth Armstrong married Adam Scott.26/5/1865 Westerkirk....
(her father Andrew Armstrong and mother Janet Murry)...(this could be a submission).
This couple had 3 children.
Elizabeth Scott. 27/3/1866 Westerkirk.dumfries.
Gideon Scott. 11 /9 /1867, Westerkirk.
Adam Scott. 25/5/1870/ Moffat.
Adam Scott and Elizabeth are in Moffat..in the 1871c with Adam...
Gideon Scott 3yrs, is staying with his grandparents Gideon and Elizabeth Scott
at Crooks, Westerkirk..
Now back to Andrew Elliot..
In the
1871c
He is still at
Watchhill.
Mary Armstrong. Head, 53yrs, Ag lab. canonbie.
Andrew Elliot...nephew, 15yrs, scholar. canonbie..
1881c..
the family have moved to Deer Park House, Inveraray, Argyll.
Adam and Elizabeth Scott and Gideon and Adam..and 2 servants.
Back at Watchhill.
Mary Armstrong, Head, 64yrs, House keeper.
Andrew Elliot, nephew, Clerk at Collery,
Thomas Farish, boarder, 22yrs, draper, Half Morton.
Jamima Lorrain, niece, 11yrs, Caanonbie.
Elizabeth Scott returned to Watchhill. and is living with Andrew Elliot.
I wonder if Mary had recently passed...
Gideon Scott is still over at Argyll...I will have to look further for Adam Scott now that I realise he was still alive in the 1901c.
modified..
In the 1891c and 1901c Gideon Scott is still in Argyll...he is a Clerk for the Estate Factor and is married with children in the 1901c.
1891c
Adam Scott is visiting at Crooks farm ....where there are a lot of Armstrongs...
1901 C
Adam Scott is at William Park's home --his brother -in- law address Cruie....Eskdalemuir. Dumfries...
NB....in the 1861c Adam birth place has been transcribed as England...but it is Langholm...Dumfries.
So even though Adam Scott isn't with his wife in 2 census, it really doesn't mean anything negative...he could be just away both nights the Census was taken..
regards,
Jo
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« Last Edit: Monday 10 December 07 09:57 GMT (UK) by kenjo »
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kenjo
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I have altered the previous post considerably..
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lesleyhannah
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This has been a fascinating thread . . . every bit as good as many of the Who do you think you are episodes.
I'm really impressed with the work Kenjo's done. Wish all brick walls could end like this!
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Fear na mara
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There are many criminals sleeping happily in their beds safe in the knowledge that Jo is not heading up the criminal investigation service in OZ – well, perhaps you are. You have kept the pace up – never less than a canter – and I am left mesmerised at the sure footed denouement.
And you have made it as clear as crystal: we have two families in parallel. Andrew, the “putative” and bachelor, living with his Aunt Mary at Watchhill, Canonbie. Andrew’s birth mother and husband Adam Scott, move north up the Esk valley, beyond Adam’s birthplace of Langholm, and eventually end up in the Highlands. After 35 years, mother and son are back together in Canonbie.
From earlier, we have Joseph at home in Half Morton with his mother in ’51. He has his liaison with Elizabeth Armstrong before he is 20 and the baby, Andrew, is born in 1856. Six years later, he is recorded as a sawyer, while he is a lodger, unmarried, with McVanes, the grocers in Castle Douglas, a fair distance from Canonbie. By ’71 he has moved to England to join his brother, he is still unmarried and a joiner. His elder brother, Andrew has been in the Whitehaven area since 1855. It would be nice to think that Jo is right that he may have been supporting his child. By 1881, Joseph is married to Ann (McMillan) Elliot, his putative son now being 25 and earning his own living. At the same time, his nephew Joseph is living with the late Andrew’s family and is working as a grocer. The Elliot’s of the remote parish of Half Morton now have a much wider territory from the lake District up to Argyll.
There are few remaining loose ends – but one in particular will not lie down. Captain John took his first command, the Yuca, a one year old barque, built at Workington, just a few months before his son, Joseph was born. For four years he was both Captain and also consignee. His remuneration would not have been insignificant. His American voyages on the Empire Queen, beginning weeks after the birth of daughter, Helen and his final two and a half years in the China Seas would have provided a handsome income also. But there is no trace of a will. Did any of Joseph’s and Isabella’s money came from John ? Joseph was not an astute investor and even if the reference in the Trade Directory for Cumberland, “the principal landowners of the township [of Oughterside] are F.L.B.Dykes, Sir Wilfrid Lawson, Joseph Elliot and John James. “ refers to our Joseph, I cannot see Joseph the sawyer/joiner generating that kind of capital.
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Elliot, Baverstock, Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe
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kenjo
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Hi Fear na mara and lesleyhannah,
I am glad you told us a bit more about your wonderful Sea Captain, and in the last reveal....that Ann did infact know her husband as a Sea Captain...
I wonder if Ann did pass away while on a trip with her husband..?
I was thinking that because the Will of John Elliot has not been found, yet.
You could go to Edinburgh and search the sasines.
.http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/sasines.asp..
just to see info on when Joseph bought the houses in Annan.
This could give a clue as to when he came into money...
Also if anyone else has any suggestions about searching Annan solicitor records please chime in..
By searching the Sasines...it could tell you what came of the houses and the people you are related to.....
JO
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AGA
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just to keep you all on your toes on this saga, following are the MIs for some of the Elliots buried in Annan.
ELLIOTS BURIED IN Annan
ANNAN OLD BURIAL GROUND
In memory of George IRVING, Master of the Sloop New Land who was lost in Ulverstone Canal on the 13th March, 1819 aged 34 years and is interred there. Also Margaret HALLIDAY his wife who died the 27th of November, 1857 aged 72 years. Also Andrew IRVING their son, Mason in Annan who died the 27th September, 1872 aged 59 years. Also Isabella ELLIOT his wife who died at Annan 12th May, 1899 aged 77 years.
Here lyes the body of Thomas ELLIOT, Smith in Annan who died November the 3 day, 1724 of age 55 years. [Back of stone] Here lyes Thomas ELLIOT son of William ELLIOT.
In memory of Margaret RICHARDSON spouse to William ELLIOT Coast Officer in Annan who died October, 1833… James ELLIOT Surgeon their eldest son who died at Lees near Manchester on the 2nd of December, 1855 aged 60 years. Also William ELLIOT M.D. of Sewerby Bridge their youngest son born 12th December, 1811 died 5th October, 1882. And James ELLIOT Surgeon of Sewerby Bridge only son of the last named born 22nd May, 1843 died 30th November, 1881. Stone weathered.
In memory of Thomas ELLIOT Blacksmith in Annan who died November the 3rd, 1724 aged 55 years. Also in memory of William ELLIOT his son, Blacksmith in Annan who died December 22nd, 1771 much regretted he lived to the age of 71 years well respected by all who knew him. Also Margaret MITCHELL spouse to William ELLIOT who died May 8th, 1766 aged 67 years. Also James ELLIOT late smith and Burgess in Annan son of the above William ELLIOT who died in June, 1787 aged 55 years. He lived beloved by all that knew him and died lamented by his friends. And Agnes BLAIR his spouse who died 5th March, 1812 aged 80 years. Also Bryce ELLIOT their son Accountant in the Bank of Scotland at Kelso who died 3rd April, 1796 aged 28 years.
ANNAN OLD PARISH CHURCH GRAVEYARD
In memory of Elizabeth McKinnel spouse of Robert Elliot in Annan who died 23rd February 1825 aged 47 years.
D2 In memory of John Jeffrey who died 19th February 1826 aged 13 years. Also Janet Elliot the beloved wife of James Jeffrey in Hull who died at Northfield Farm 28th July 1871 aged 47 years. ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven’
In memory of Isabella Bell who died at Brydekirk Village 29th March 1883 aged 77 years. Foot of Stone Erected by her grandson William Elliot.
ANNAN NEW CEMETERY
B11 In memory of Life how short, eternity how long. Ann Scott Shennan, wife of Captain John Elliot, who departed this life at London on 1st October and was interred here on the 4th of October 1866 aged 33 years. Also the above John Elliot who died at Swatow, China, on the 30th October 1872 aged 40 years. Also Helen Elliot, daughter of the above and wife of David Gardiner, who died at Annan 29th December 1925 aged 62 years. Also the above David Gardiner who died at Annan 23rd March 1948 aged 83 years. Also Elliot Gardiner their son, died 11th September 1946 aged 42 years. Also David Gardiner their son died 15th June 1956 aged 61 years.
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kenjo
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OH AGA!!!! 
I have to tell you....as I was reading ....I could feel there was something big coming up....
and when I read the last passage I was covered in Goosebumps...and blood rushed to my head..
WOW.....Wow...wow.
Darling Anne...we now know what happened to you.. I am so grateful.
I must say 'fear na mara' I am sorry for jumping in and replying like this....and taking the pleasure away from you...but I couldn't help it...
You have a lot of info here.....and if they are all connected that is grand...
all the Elliot women...revealed again and Janet...knowing were exactly she died...wonderfull.
Oh...I can't explain...my happiness....now I am having a cry.
JO
Death Index
Ann Elliott aged 33...Dec Q ..E London, 1c 1
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Fear na mara
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Demands of family took me to London for the last couple of days. I return now at dead of night to find yet another great seam of family history revealed. It is overwhelming: so much information - corroborative and new. Not just revelations from Aga, but pushing the envelope way back and way ahead. I will need to examine all this when I have recovered my composure. (If the current demands do not moderate, I shall have to consider becoming a Camaldolese hermit).
October was a bad month for Captain John - two wives and finally his own death. Yes Jo, it is a "sad joy" to have the end of Ann's story, and John mentioned on the same stone with his children and his childrens' children. But, John was not in London at the time of her death, he had set off on the Regent for a trip - first call West Indies, then round the Horn and across the pacific to the East Indies. I will need to look up the port stops and my log of telegraph growth to see when he might have had news of Ann's death.
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Elliot, Baverstock, Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe
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Fear na mara
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When Captain John married Eliza Baverstock in May 1869, his residence was given as Albert Square, Limehouse - not yet made infamous by Jack the Ripper or famous by Eastenders. I have ordered a copy of Ann's death certificate which should tell us where they stayed while in London.
I am so grateful to AGA for the information about the graves, especially Annan new Cemetery, where Ann, John and Helen are commemorated. And their children Elliot and David, which brings this history into my own lifetime.
My mother is both delighted and saddened: to have found her lost relatives and their story, yet never to have known them.
Jo has really achieved quite an outstanding result and I hope there is a grander title than Aristocrat to mark her exceptional performance.
There is a small sadness that Isabella lies apart from the later family but consolation that she is perhaps with the forbears of Sarah Margaret's husband Edward - the Blacksmiths of Annan. It raises a question about my conclusion that Edward's grandfather, George and his great-uncle Thomas had their roots in Canonbie.
I see that a search of the Sasines would require a trip to Edinburgh - that must wait until the spring, when I anticipate loading the camels and trekking up to Scotland - first stop Annan.
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Elliot, Baverstock, Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe
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kenjo
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Hi All,
I just thought I would add the facts on the Irving family seeming 'E' your on the trail at the moment..
{I must say 'E' you do have some wonderful resouces at hand...}.
1841 census
English St, Annan.
Agness Anson 20
Andrew Anson 30 Glass blower
Andrew Irving 25 Mason.
Margaret Irving 55 Widow
Margaret Irving 13
Susan Irving 12
Agness Williams 25
John Williams 25 (I am not sure of the order this is in..or even if it is right all the names together)
1851 Census
Murray St, Annan.
Margaret Irving Head, 67yrs, Sailors Widow, Annan.
Andrew Irving Son, 36yrs, Stone mason, (journeyman), Annan.
George Irving, grandson, 7yrs, Annan.
1861 Census
Murray Street, Annan.
Andrew Irving, Head, 46yrs, Stone-Mason (mastic), Annan.
Grace Irving, Neice, 14yrs, Annan.
'E' I was wondering if Andrew was a bachelor or a widower when he married Isabella Elliot?
Jo
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Fear na mara
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Now, with the benefit of the marriage certificate, we know that Andrew waited in Back Lady Street and had his fiftieth birthday before Isabella married him. The patient Andrew contrasts with another Irving - William , born in Annan in 1816, became one of the youngest Captains working out of Boston. At the age of 33 he moved to the Western seaboard on the barque, Success, in which he owned some shares, and set up a freight business in Oregon. He bought a steamer, the Eagle, the first to work the North East Pacific, and some land as a base for his business. That base eventually became the city of Portland. He moved over the border into British Colombia and bought two river steamers to work the Fraser River. His home is now a heritage site. He is very well researched but the Annan roots do not indicate his relationship with our Irvings.
And – I recognise a nautical deviation which might pull too far from the business in hand.
And - if we skirt around the temptations of the sea-farers, we should avoid most carefully Edward Irving. whose statue used to stand outside the Town Hall, but was moved to the parish Church in what may be an act of forgiveness for his heresy. There is enough potential religious controversy in Helen and David Gardiner's son, John Elliot slipping off to marry in the United Free Church.
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Elliot, Baverstock, Shennan, Glover, Radcliffe
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Boongie Pam
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Lilian Palmer 1923 to 1987
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This is a fantastic thread of work!
I'm getting goosebumps reading. I have sea captains in my family from Annan so extra special interest for me.
I also have a coincidental name thing which is getting me very excited. Unfortunately my website seems to be down  but I have a female who had 5 illegitimate children all with the middle name Elliot born in and around Port St in the 1860-70s. I will log on tonight when I am at home to see if any naming patterns coincide. I have had many moments of "that sounds familiar" as I have read the thread but without access to my website I can't confirm anything.
Pam
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All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright~~~~~~~~~~~ Dumfrieshire: Fallen, Fallon, Carruthers, Scott, Farish, Aitchison, Green, Ryecroft, Thomson, Stewart Midlothian: Linn/d, Aitken, Martin North Wales: Robins(on), Hughes, Parry, Jones Cumberland: Lowther, Young, Steward, Miller Somerset: Palmer, Cork, Greedy, Clothier http://fallon.rootschat.net
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