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Topic: Completed Can't find any of these in BMD ? (Read 529 times)
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gerryfitz
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 50
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I am about demented trying to find these people in the BMD lists.
They are the children of Robert BELL and his wife Martha.
What I am after is Martha's maiden name.
This information is gleaned from Census Records:
Margaret Bell b 1842 in Carlisle
Thomas Bell b 1844 Newby Carlisle
Henry Bell b1849 Newby Carlisle
Martha Bell b1856 Newby Carlisle
I found the baptism record for this next one in the Carlisle Record Office but mothers name only given as Martha.
William Bell,christened 8.6.1862 at Wreay by Carlisle, parents Robert Bell and Martha of Southwaite Farm
I can not find any records of a marriage for Robert Bell and a Martha (I bought the record for Carlisle v25 p46 Mar 1846 and it is not them, wrong occupations and wrong area).
Why on earth can I not find any of these childdren in the BMD?
Any help appreciated,
Gerry
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FITZSIMONS Ireland & Sunderland,
IRVING Carlisle & Sunderland,
CULLEN Ireland, Coundon, Boldon
REILLY Ireland & Coundon,
NAYLOR Sunderland,
CRITCHLEY Coundon,
CUSHLOW (CASHLAN & variants) Leadgate & Coundon,
DONKIN Sunderland,
BELL Carlisle & North East,
RICHARDSON Carlisle
TWENTYMAN Carlisle
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Newf
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 13961
Tiny Avatar to reduce resource utilisation.
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assume that you are going a year either side of the census 'age' ?
theres 3 Margarets born Carlisle 1841 - 1843 for example ....
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk PLEDGER – 1678, Gt BardField, Essex EVERETT - 1830, Scoles, Norfolk & Epping, SX OSGATHORPE - 1825, North Kensington LILLEY – 1711, Ickleton, Cambs DAVISON – 1700-1710, Horncastle & Coningsby, Lincs BOWER – 1690-1700, Killinworth, Lincs CHASE – 1735, Kings Lynn, Norfolk LAIRD – 1777, Portsmouth, Hants & Kings Lynn, Norfolk GOWENLOCK – Carlisle |
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Ecneps
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 10128
Grandma & Grandad Sivills
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Hi Gerry,
Several possibles for the children in the freebmd index - they may not have been baptised the same year they were born.
Best one for William seems to be 1862 June Qu Carlisle 10b 44_ ,
you could contact Carlisle register office and ask them to check the parents' names before buying the certificate.
http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/registration/wheretofindus/carlisle.asp
Have you found them in the 1851 census? I found a Margaret, Thomas & Henry Richardson right ages living with grandparents surnamed Richardson -Wondering if Robert or Martha married twice and the children would be found under Richardson in bmds?
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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Ecneps
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Posts: 10128
Grandma & Grandad Sivills
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This is only a possibility of course, but maybe Martha had the first three before marriage, then married Robert later:
1841 HO107/176/92 fol.6 p.6
Newby, Cumberland
RICHARDSON
Thomas 52 Farmer
Margaret 43
Edward 20
Martha 18
John 14
Thomas 13
Mary 11
Dorothy 8
Joseph 5
all born in county
1851 HO107/2431 fol.230 p.
Newby, Cumberland
RICHARDSON
Thos, head, m, 61, Farmer of 61 Acres Dalston Cumb
Margt, wife, m, 53, farmers wife, Orton Rigg, Cumb
Margt, dau, s, 28, farmers dau, Dalewintleton
John, son, s, 24 " son "
Joseph,son, s 16 " " Orton Rigg
Dorothy, dau, s 18 " dau Heighby
Margt, granddau, 9 " g.dau Newby
Thos. " son 7 " g.son "
Henry " " 1 " " "
Martha & Robert are living together I think in 1851, will post later
Barbara
Ditto Geoff!!!
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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Ecneps
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 10128
Grandma & Grandad Sivills
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No, don't think this is the right Robert & Martha for the family I found, could well be the two on the cert Gerry got, do they tally with your cert, Gerry?
Your marriage ref looks more likely, Geoff
1851 HO107/2429 fol.527 p.52
English Street, Carlisle
Robert Bell head mar 35 Draper Employing 1 assistant & 3 apprentices Bowness
Martha Bell wife mar 33 Carlisle
unable to find the right ones in 1851, marriage cert needed for Robert's father's name.
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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gerryfitz
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Firstly, Many thanks for all these replies.
The William Bell in the BMD index for 1862 June Qtr 10b 44, turned out to be the son of a single woman called Sarah Bell of Baileystack Lane, Rickengate. So that is a 'wrong 'un'.
Well done to GeoffE and the others who found the Richardson marriage.
That marriage for 1861 would seem to be a strong possibility, given the other census information you have passed on. I was looking far too early in the records, it seems they married after being together for a long while.
On my last trip to the Carlisle Record Office, just on an off chance I decided to look for all Marthas born about 1824 in the Haughton adn the Orton Parish Records.
I found Martha Richardson, christened on Boxing Day 1824, daughter of Thomas and Margaret Richardson (nee Twentyman), of Dalston. Of course I had no idea at that time if this was a possibility or not.
I had never found the marriage that Geoff has found.
The two people on the marriage cert. I bought were Robert Bell, Draper of Bread St and Martha Beswick, Spinster of Church Street. These are not right, my Bell's were farmers or at least farm workers.
Barbara, how did you get the Richardson connection, what made you seek Richardsons on the census?
It seems that Martha has been breeding a bit 'afore she got married, maybe they were living ‘in tally’ as me Mam used to call it.
My Robert Bell's father was William Bell born Wetherall Carlisle circa 1797 and married Jane Dunn in Carlisle on 13.12.1817.
The Census records for 1841 and 1851 seem to be on the right track for Martha’s family.
I need to start working out why the delayed marriage, and whether the children are actually on the BMD as Richardson. I’ll also have a dig about on the IGI and see if I can come up with any matches.
Once again, many thanks, I now have something more to work on.
Regards,
Gerry
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FITZSIMONS Ireland & Sunderland,
IRVING Carlisle & Sunderland,
CULLEN Ireland, Coundon, Boldon
REILLY Ireland & Coundon,
NAYLOR Sunderland,
CRITCHLEY Coundon,
CUSHLOW (CASHLAN & variants) Leadgate & Coundon,
DONKIN Sunderland,
BELL Carlisle & North East,
RICHARDSON Carlisle
TWENTYMAN Carlisle
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Ecneps
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 10128
Grandma & Grandad Sivills
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Barbara, how did you get the Richardson connection, what made you seek Richardsons on the census?
I didn't, is the short answer. 
The long answer is, when I couldn't find the parents, I looked for the children, first names birthdates and birthplaces only, no surnames. When I saw those three with right first names etc., living together with grandparents, I looked back to the earlier census and found single Martha. Hey presto! I quite often do searches without surnames, in case they've been transcribed or indexed badly, so it works out quite well for changes of surname too.
Good luck with the rest of your searching, let us know if you need further help
Barbara 
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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Ecneps
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 10128
Grandma & Grandad Sivills
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I think the RICHARDSON daughter "Margt 28" in 1851 was the same person as "Martha 18" in 1841, so was still with her parents at that point.
I had wondered about that too, Geoff, and double-checked the image to make sure, it's definitely Margt. on the 1851 census page, but possibly the enumerator got it wrong - not unheard of  and there's no Margaret in 1841.
Barbara
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Census and bmd information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and www.scotlandspeople.gov.ukNorfolk - Ebbs Whiterod Zipfell Lincs & Yorks - Sivills Predgen Sweden - Jönsson Cronberg Andersson Yorks - Spence Hide Hird Durham - Dalkin Selby Renwick Somerset - Keen Hitchins |
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gerryfitz
RootsChat Extra
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Yes, Geoff, you are right, I am presuming too much.
I found Henry, Margaret, Martha Jnr, and Thomas (together with their parents) in the 1861 census with the surname of Bell, at a farm called Hacen Bags, Petteril Crooks, and have assumed they were 'always' called Bell.
Maybe Robert Bell took pity on Martha and 'took in' all her kids when they married and he was only actually the natural father of William.born in 1862?
I think I will try the Parish Registers at Carlisle to see if any father is mentioned for the early children of Martha, and then maybe try some birth certs., but make sure there is a father mentioned before I buy.
I feel that you have at least put me on the right track.
Once again, many thanks.
Gerry
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FITZSIMONS Ireland & Sunderland,
IRVING Carlisle & Sunderland,
CULLEN Ireland, Coundon, Boldon
REILLY Ireland & Coundon,
NAYLOR Sunderland,
CRITCHLEY Coundon,
CUSHLOW (CASHLAN & variants) Leadgate & Coundon,
DONKIN Sunderland,
BELL Carlisle & North East,
RICHARDSON Carlisle
TWENTYMAN Carlisle
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gerryfitz
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 50
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Thank you,
Have I missed something again?
Why still next door to Howfield?
I have not come across any connection with Howfield that I know of, nor is it mentioned in any of these posts?
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FITZSIMONS Ireland & Sunderland,
IRVING Carlisle & Sunderland,
CULLEN Ireland, Coundon, Boldon
REILLY Ireland & Coundon,
NAYLOR Sunderland,
CRITCHLEY Coundon,
CUSHLOW (CASHLAN & variants) Leadgate & Coundon,
DONKIN Sunderland,
BELL Carlisle & North East,
RICHARDSON Carlisle
TWENTYMAN Carlisle
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