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Topic: A mystery first marriage: 1830s-1850s (Read 979 times)
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AndrewMartin
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Posts: 186
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Hello,
I've been stuck for some time now with the mystery identity of my Gt Gt Gt Grandfather's first wife.
My GGGGrandfather's name was James Martin, born about 1815 in Witcham, Cambridgeshire.
In 1850 he married his second wife - Mary Tingey (b.1821, Little Downham). Both have widower/widow on the certificate and so i've been trying to find a suitable marriage for James between the mid 1830s and 1850.
I know it wasnt Susan Loakes of Witcham (married a James Martin in 1842) as she appears with another James (born about the same year!) on the 1851 census...
...but otherwise, i'm stuck and i've run dry of the online and paper resources.
If you can help or suggest a source.. then please do so! I'd be very grateful.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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suffolk*sue
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G.g.granny is out there somewhere
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From Boyds marriage index
1833 / MARTIN JAMES / BARKER ELIZABETH / SOHAM
1834/ MARTIN JAS/ BENTON AN /PAPWORTH ST AGNES
1836/ MARTIN JAS / TITMOUSE SARA/ GUILDEN MORDEN
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AndrewMartin
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hi Sue, thanks for these.
Im pretty sure that i can rule out Papworth and Guiden Morden.
Soham might stand a chance but i recognise the coupling - i'll check my records.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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Frances
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Hi Andrew,
This is from the BVRI 
James Martin and Mary Ann Moxon 7 June 1841 Downham
Husbands Father Robert Martin
Wifes father John Moxon
FHL Film 1040460
Frances
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Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk -------------------------------------------------- Hope/Buckinghamshire Palmer Cambridge Hope/Camberwell Palmer Essex Bolton/Camberwell Emery Potton Bedfordshire DeBoo/ Poplar/Anywhere Oliver /Chatteris, Cambs. Redkison/ Anywhere Carter Bedfordshire Bernard/Stepney Lawrence/Colchester Essex Carter/ Leytonstone Bones/ Essex Tullett/ Surrey/Essex |
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AndrewMartin
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hi Frances, thanks for suggesting that one but unfortunately that doesn't fit either 
Here's a bit more info:
James Martin (bc 1814, d.1868) was the son of James Martin and Mary Waters of Coveney.
James Martin (Jnr) married widow Mary Crisp (nee Tingey) on 27th July 1850 at The Countess of Huntingdon's Chapel, Oxlode, Cambridgeshire. Their certificate reveals that BOTH had lost their previous spouse.
Now, I don't know whether the venue of this second marriage might be a clue - someone once told me that it also served as a pumping station (or something like that!), meaning that the records are somewhere different? Unfortunately, with this being the darkest fenland, I guess it does mean that Coveney, March, Mepal, Little Downham, Ely, Littleport and Witcham could all be candidates... but unless the marriage register was completed incorrectly (?!!), this first Martin marriage remains a mystery so far
Thanks everyone for your interest and help so far 
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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bedfordshire boy
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I'm not convinced you're not mixing and matching different James Martins
In 1851 James Martin 37 born Coveney and his wife Susanna 29 born Bluntisham Hunts and four children were living in Wardyhill, Coveney.
Next door was James Martin and wife Mary both 67, he born Coveney, she at Mepal.
Cambs FHS Baptism Index shows James Martin baptised 1814, son of James and Mary, abode Wadrow Hill. Wadrow Hill/Wardyhill??? So this looks to be the one still living in Coveney in 1851 married to Susanna, so he's not your ancestor. But you say your James was born in Witcham, as was Susan. The only Susan Martin born Witcham that I can see was the wife of William Martin of Coveney.
The question is who was your James Martin? I think you need to go back to basics.
Do you have him in any census to use as a starting point, and we'll see if we can go backwards from there.
James was your 3xg grandfather. Who was your 2xg grandparent, child of James?
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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AndrewMartin
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hi David,
Thanks for that. It is quite confusing as there are more than one JAMES MARTIN born at roughly the same time in that area.
William and Susan Martin of Wardy Hill and James and Susan(nah) of Coveney are not the right branches as they have not produced the 1851 James Martin, come the 1861 census. Plus, I have the 1851 birth certificate for James Martin which shows the identity of his parents.
My Gt Grandfather was Herbert Martin, b.1884 in Downham Fen. His parents (my Gt Gt Grandparents) were James Martin (b.10.05.1851, d.02.05.1934) and Sarah Elizabeth Giddings (b.03.07.1852, d.1925).
On James Martin's birth certificate in 1851, his mother is named as "Mary Martin, formerly Tingey" and his father is James Martin.
Here's the census instances that i have so far:
1851, Little Downham
Mary Martin, H M 29, Ag Lab's wife, b.Lt Downham
William Crisp, S U 4, - , b. Lt Downham
Sarah Saddons, Si M 19, Rail Lab's Wife, b. Lt Downham
John Saddons, Ne U 8mths, - , b. Lt Downham
James Martin (Mary's husband and my gt gt gt grandfather) is missing!
Elsewhere in Lt Downham/Oxlode is a 32yr old James Martin but he's married to Judith and with a massive family. In Wimbotsham (?), Norfolk is a 38yr old James Martin, married, Ag Lab.. but not with his wife. He is living with his brother-in-law (a name i have never seen before)... and James' place of birth has been left blank. I have no idea where he went in 1851 - the year of his son (my gt gt grfthr)'s birth!
1861, Little Downham
James Martin, 46, Railroad Lab, (my gt gt gt grandfather)
Mary Martin, 41
William Crisp Martin, 14, b. Lt Downham
James Martin, 9, b. Lt. Downham (my gt gt grandfather)
Ellen Martin, 7, b. Lt. Downham
Sarah Martin, 5, b. Lt. Downham
1871, Little Downham
Mary Martin, H, W, 49, Gatekeeper, b. Lt Downham
James Martin, S, U, 19, Ag. Lab, b. Lt Downham (my gt gt grandfather)
1881, Little Downham
James Martin, 29, Railway Lab, b.Oxlode (100ft Bank)
Sarah Elizabeth Martin, 28, -, b.March
Isaac Martin, 6, - , b. Downham Fen
Rose Martin, 5,-,b. Downham Fen
Walter Martin, 3,-, b. Downham Fen
William Martin, 1, -, b. Downham Fen.
1891, Little Downham
James Martin, H M 39, Railway Watchman, b. Lt Downham (gt gt gfthr)
Sarah E Martin, W M 33, -, b. March
Rose Ellen Martin, D U 15, Domestic Servant, b. Lt Downham
Walter James Martin, S U 13, Scholar, b. Lt Downham
George E Martin, S U 9, Scholar, b. Lt Downham
Herbert Martin, S U 6, Scholar, b. Lt Downham (my Gt Grandfather)
Emma Jane Martin, D U 3, - , b.Lt Downham
1901, Little Downham
James Martin H M 49, Railway Platelayer, b. Lt Downham
Sarah Martin W M 48, - , b. March
Walter Martin S U 23, Ag Lab, b. Lt Downham
Herbert Martin S U 16, Horse man on farm, b. Lt Downham (gt gfthr)
Emma Martin D U 13, - , b. Lt Downham
Percy Martin S U 9, -, b. Lt Downham
Ethel Martin D U 6, -, b. Lt Downham
Albert Martin S U 1, -, b. Lt Downham
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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suffolk*sue
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G.g.granny is out there somewhere
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Any idea where James was in 1841, maybe with his first wife and possible children then.
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bedfordshire boy
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Hi Andrew
I've just been looking at your tree and trying to pick up the family in censuses, concentrating on 1861. In it James gives his birthplace as Downham and age 46. As he was described as a rail road labourer, he was possibly away from home building railroads in 1851 - was an occupation quoted on his marriage cert? But there's a James Martin married 35 ag lab birthplace unknown living in Wicken in 1851 which is not far from Downham, which might be him.
I think the James son of James and Mary baptised 1814 at Coveney, abode Wadrow Hill, is the same James age 37 born Coveney married to Susanna living at Wardyhill in 1851 next door to James and Mary Martin. Which if correct blows the pre 1814 part of your tree out of the water. James and Susanna's 1842 marriage cert should help prove/disprove my theory.
What was the name of James' father on his marriage cert to Mary Tingey - James I assume?
As he married in a nonconformist church it's possible he wasn't baptised in the established church
Must dash and cook something for my little one - he's starving
I'll carry on after lunch
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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bedfordshire boy
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Let's go for a process of elimination
In 1841 in Downham was James Martin 25 and Robert Martin 15 in household of James & Avis Wisby. Cambs FHS baptism has a baptism of Robert Martin in Downham in 1824, son of Robert and Avis. I can't see a baptism of James to this couple, but he may well be the James, father Robert, who married Mary Ann Moxon, who Frances found.
Or was he? Also in Downham in 1841 was James Martin 20 (or is it 40?) in household of John Moxon, which included Mary Moxon 25
Were there two separate James in Downham, or is it the same James enumerated twice with different ages. The census was taken the night before he married so could he have spent that night with his mother rather than his intended?
More questions than answers so far
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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AndrewMartin
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I've just been looking at your tree and trying to pick up the family in censuses, concentrating on 1861. In it James gives his birthplace as Downham and age 46. As he was described as a rail road labourer, he was possibly away from home building railroads in 1851 - was an occupation quoted on his marriage cert? But there's a James Martin married 35 ag lab birthplace unknown living in Wicken in 1851 which is not far from Downham, which might be him.
I dont really know where he was. Wicken is a possibility as it is so close by... so it could be him. Also missing is John Saddons, the husband of Sarah Saddons (nee Tingey) - the sister of his second wife Mary Martin (nee Tingey). Perhaps they were away working together?
I think the James son of James and Mary baptised 1814 at Coveney, abode Wadrow Hill, is the same James age 37 born Coveney married to Susanna living at Wardyhill in 1851 next door to James and Mary Martin. Which if correct blows the pre 1814 part of your tree out of the water. James and Susanna's 1842 marriage cert should help prove/disprove my theory.
uh oh... keep reading....
What was the name of James' father on his marriage cert to Mary Tingey - James I assume?
James Martin and Mary Crisp (nee Tingey) were married on 27th July 1850 in the 'countess of huntingdon's chapel according to the rites and ceremonies of the Calvinists'. And, whilst I had somehow assumed that James was noted as his father, it is written in the copy of the certificate as 'Robert Martin - labourer'... so yes, there is/was something fishy in my tree. I wonder why i overlooked this years ago? This means that i've got a good five generations of Martins to chop off my ancestry.. although they probably still feature somewhere in the tree.
This means therefore that an earlier guess at Mary Ann Moxen as the first wife, could well be correct - she married a James Martin (of Robert Martin) at Little Downham on 7th June 1841 - 1 day after the 1841 census!!!! GRRRRR!  how inconsiderate!!
So, looking for an unmarried James Martin, about 25/6yrs old in 1841 has given me the following:
1841, Hundred Foot Bank, Oxlode
James Wisby 35 Ag Lab Y
Avis Wisby 35 Ag Lab Y
James Martin 25 Ag Lab Y
Robert Martin 15 Ag Lab Y
Looking through the Little Downham baptisms with a new light, shows that a Robert and Avis Martin were growing a family there. Children included William (1813), Sarah (1818), Robert (1822), Robert (1824). My records, transcribed from the register (on film at the Cambs Records Office) doesn't go back any further so I shall now have a look at our friendly Mormon's records...
As he married in a nonconformist church it's possible he wasn't baptised in the established church
James Martin b.1815ish who married the Moxon and Tingey brides... Yes, this has crossed my mind before but i'm not really sure what to look for if that is the case - im not sure who the Calvinists are/were and where i'd find their records.
This could be a great example of barking up the wrong tree... there's an important lesson in there somewhere.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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AndrewMartin
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Let's go for a process of elimination
Oops, we overlapped there.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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bedfordshire boy
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You took the bad news that your tree is now a stump remarkably well Andrew! Same thing happened to me a few years ago, so you're not alone in having done it.
Now that you've established that James' father was Robert that does put a whole new complexion on it, and I agree that the James who married Mary Moxon is very possibly the James who married Mary Crisp, and is likely to be a son of Robert and Avis, given that who appears to be him was living with Avis and who was probably his brother Robert in 1841.
Avis' age of 35 is obviously wrong in 1841 for even if she were 39 she would still be too young to be married and having a child in 1813. In fact in 1851 Aves Wisbe was 58 born Downham which looks much more realistic.
Looking at the Burial Index there's a Robert Martin aged 41 buried at Downham in 1826 which might well be Avis' first husband and father of Robert, and probably James too. If this is the right Robert then Avis would have remarried James Wisby earlier than I'd assumed and in fact the Henry Wisby(e) who appears in 1841/51 born 1830 is on the IGI as the son of James and Avis. I can't see a marriage of James Wisby and Avis Martin between 1826 and 1830 though.
I'm not convinced now that the family was non-conformist, given that Robert & Avis baptised five other children either side of when James was born in the established church. Perhaps James was just missed - there's a nice big gap between William in 1813 and Sarah in 1818
Mary Martins were two a penny in Cambs and there are two deaths in Ely registration district, which includes Downham, which might be yours - March 1844 and June 1846
Regards
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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AndrewMartin
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You took the bad news that your tree is now a stump remarkably well Andrew! Same thing happened to me a few years ago, so you're not alone in having done it.
Oh well, you know, there's no need to really be upset by it. I've enjoyed researching my surrogate Martin, Waters, Atkins etc ancestors as a result of this error. I even have a photo of my 'Mary Martin/Waters' - a lovely photo.. but it's not her now! Not to worry. I'll get to update my website soon once i've established the right James Martin.
Now that you've established that James' father was Robert that does put a whole new complexion on it, and I agree that the James who married Mary Moxon is very possibly the James who married Mary Crisp,
I've been having a look at the Moxon family. I found the James Martin living at Main Street, Little Downham, 1841 at the house of John Moxon.. with a '25' year old Mary Moxon. I then had a rummage on familysearch.org and have found contrasting results. Rather than John Moxon, they've got a Francis Moxon.. who married... an Elizabeth Tingey! (to add to that, Elizabeth Tingey was the daughter of Mary Barber - who features over in my maternal tree!). The family group of Moxons, headed by the wrong father, lists all the same children and the mother as the 1841 census does. Confusing. 1809 and 1818 show up Downham Mary Moxons but none of John Moxon (as per marriage register).
and is likely to be a son of Robert and Avis, given that who appears to be him was living with Avis and who was probably his brother Robert in 1841.
Avis' age of 35 is obviously wrong in 1841 for even if she were 39 she would still be too young to be married and having a child in 1813. In fact in 1851 Aves Wisbe was 58 born Downham which looks much more realistic.
Interesting. I originally read that as Avis Wisby being the married sister of James and Robert. I wonder!
Looking at the Burial Index there's a Robert Martin aged 41 buried at Downham in 1826 which might well be Avis' first husband and father of Robert, and probably James too. If this is the right Robert then Avis would have remarried James Wisby earlier than I'd assumed and in fact the Henry Wisby(e) who appears in 1841/51 born 1830 is on the IGI as the son of James and Avis. I can't see a marriage of James Wisby and Avis Martin between 1826 and 1830 though.
This would explain why I havent been able to find Robert Martin on the censuses.
I'm not convinced now that the family was non-conformist, given that Robert & Avis baptised five other children either side of when James was born in the established church. Perhaps James was just missed - there's a nice big gap between William in 1813 and Sarah in 1818
Mary Martins were two a penny in Cambs and there are two deaths in Ely registration district, which includes Downham, which might be yours - March 1844 and June 1846
Regards
David
Thank you David, it's been great working through this with you today. I've now got some extra work to do on Monday week at the records office.
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Andrew Martin Cambridge, England. www.familytreeuk.co.ukResearching: BABBIDGE, BAILEY, BARBER, BARKER, BISHOP, BOULTER, BOWERS, BURNELL, COOPER, CROSS, DEWEY, DEWSBURY, FREEMAN, GAWTHROP, GIDDINGS, GIGNER, GILBERT, GILLIONS, GOLTRIP, GOTHARD, HAWKINS, JEFFERY, LEVITT, MARTIN, MODEN, NEWMAN, NEWELL, TAYLOR, TINGEY, WATERS, WHITEHEAD, YARROW. |
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suffolk*sue
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G.g.granny is out there somewhere
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From Boyds marriage index
1827 / WISBY, WISBEY, WISBE JAMES / MARTIN AVIS / DOWNHAM
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