lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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I wonder if someone would mind seeing if I've found gg grandfather Richard WILLIAM(S) on the 1841 census or if I'm jumping to unwarranted conclusions(ie out to lunch!)
I have him in London in the 1851 and subsequent censuses. Birth year is consistent for 1823 or 1824. Birthplace is Talyllin on all censuses but Corris in the 1901.
I have his 1851 marriage cert at the Welsh Chapel in Jewin St according to the rites of the Welsh Calvinistic Church.
Occupation on marriage cert is stone mason(slate mason on 1851 census)
Father's name on cert is William RICHARD, quarryman.
Now I'm trying to find him in 1841. Can't find a suitable candidate in London(Middlesex)
Looking for him on !841 census in Merionethshire ,I found a Richard RICHARD with a father William RICHARD and on the same image a Richard WILLIAM both in the Talyllin area, H0107 Piece 1429 Book 9 Folio 11 Page 15, but am inclined to dismiss RW one as the age is not right.
How likely is it that Richard RIchard could be my Richard WILLIAM as I thought the Welsh naming system had more or less disappeared by this time?
Also, it couldn't be that easy could it because IGI has the RICHARD family christenings at the Reheboth Calvinistic Methodist Chapel inTalyllin and I just couldn't be that lucky or could I?
Sorry this is so rambling. Would appreciate any comments
Lily
PS If I got the reference wrong or if I need to document it would someone direct me to where I can find out how to do this? Thanks
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24540
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hello Lily 
This is a Welsh puzzle!
What you've possibly found is not the full patronymic (ap/ab etc) , which had practically disappeared from Wales by this time, but the intermediate stage. This was still used in some areas into the 19th century, especially in this area. It is very confusing as a person might be known by both x (father's first name) and x (father's second patronymic name) in different contexts and by different people. For example in parish records, one minister might use the semi-patronymic form and another might use the surname form for the children of the same parents.
I notice that in the 1841, Richard was entered as 18 but then the enumerator has corrected it to 15 (rounding down ). This would fit with your Richard's birth date. Also, I note that William Richard's occupation was entered as 'J' - as were a number of others in the book. The enumerator appears to have use three different types of J: a round looped J that he used for all the occupations and some first names; a pointed top loop J for other first names; and a J above the line for surnames such as Jones. I think the J in occupations might refer to 'journeyman' - I'm not too sure of the quarrying occupations but some were fairly skilled. There is a site for the North Wales slate quarries but at the moment, I can't fined it. I'll do some further searches.
I can't find a Richard Richard(s) who matches in the 1851. By 1851, William Richard is widowed and his daughter, Mary Richard, is the only one of the children left. He is down as a Quarryman, b. Mallwyd, Merionethshire.
From the evidence, I would say that you could be 85-90% confident that you have the correct family. It might be worth checking up on brother Howel/Hywel and his mother Mary's death certificate (1841-1851)
Good Luck
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24540
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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This site may help with information about the slate quarries of North Wales:
http://www.penmorfa.com/Slate/
Gadget
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lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Gadget
Thank you so much for your response.I really appreciate it. You have really clarified for me the transition period from the traditional Welsh to the modern naming system.
I will follow up on the death records- good idea that hadn't occurred to me so thanks for that too.
I also found a contact who has William Richard of Corris on a will of one of her ancestors. We are both struggling with the naming system so I shall share the info you gave with her.
I think I saw a message here-maybe it was yours- about the excellent literacy levels of the Welsh quarrymen. If you can recommend a site for that I'd be really grateful.
An 85 -90% confidence level souds good to me- nice Christmas present
Again thanks
lilyj
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24540
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi Lily
This gives some more refs to Welsh Quarries:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/#Occupations
Also, if you scroll down the page to Education, there are a few refs to voluntary education in Wales pre-1870.
It is highly likely that the literacy link would be with non-conformist chapels rather than the quarries.
Gadget
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lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Thanks Gadget
Off to have a look now
Lily
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lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Thanks Gadget
I found the reference to William Richard and have asked Dolgellau for a translation
Tried an online dictionary but that method would probably take me a year or two!
lilyj
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24540
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi Lily
Dollgellau is a pretty busy person so, if he doesn't get back soon, it might be worth your while putting up the excerpt as a new thread with 'translation please' appended. There are quite a few Welsh speakers on here who would help out, I'm sure
Gadget
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Llwyn Onn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Lily
I have been researching Richard Williams' family as I believe I am related to his wife Catherine (Jones) born in Llanymawddwy - a 1st cousin of my grt. grandfather. I know that they married March 1/4 1851 in East London. My family has kept the centenery booklet of the chapel in Charing Cross Road. Richard Williams went to London to work as a supervisor for Morgan Jones, Slate Merchant (who went to London 1845). The family was in contact with Howel J. Williams (son of Richard and Catherine).
Are you able to confirm that Catherine's parents were Margaret and John (as you have the marriage certificate) ?
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lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi there
How exciting to meet a Williams/Jones connection!
Marriage certs only show father's names and Catherine's was John Jones, occupation Shoemaker.
I have plenty of info on the family of Richard and Catherine. Please feel free to pm me if you would like some more info.
My great grandmother was their daughter Margaret.
I would love to know more about the Jones side . And quite frankly I'd love a gander at the booklet if we can arrange that. Richard was a Deacon of the Welsh Chapel. His father , William Richard, was Deacon of Rehoboth chapel in Corris, Merionethshire.
Was Morgan Jones your g grandfather? I would love to hear more.
I just got back from a trip to the Corris area.
I haven't found Catherine on either the Welsh or English 1841 census (on later censuses she gives her birthplace as Dinas Mawddy), nor have I found a baptism record, so I know very little about her.
Lilyj
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Llwyn Onn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Lily
Just the proof I have been looking for at long last! I've also had difficulty tracing Catherine's parents and wondered whether they would have emigrated. However, I found her birth and baptism in the records of Ebenezer Congregational Chapel, Dinas Mawddwy.
Catherine, daughter of John Jones, Shoemaker, by Margaret his wife of Llwyn Onn in the Parish of Llanymawddwy born 14th and baptized 17th of April 1819. During my research I have learnt that John Jones was a very talented person and an excellent singer - and I have found that Mary Jane (a sister of your grt. grandmother) was a teacher + Vocalist RAM (Music). Do you know anything about her after 1881?
Catherine's mother, Margaret (Roberts), was a sister to Barbara - my grtgrt grandmother.
I am new to RootsChat - registered because I read your query! What do you mean by 'feel free to pm me'?
By the way, the booklet mentioned is in Welsh. Do you live in Wales?
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lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Llywn Onn
Long last proof for me too-I had had the IGI record for Catherine Jones on hold for about 10 years! Ther seems to be a possible brother too on the IGI Rowland Jones. Can you confirm that?
"feel free to pm me" refers to the personal message system on the board. We can exchange personal messages. I will send you a pm about it and you will get a notification about it in your email.. I think you have to have posted 3 times before you can use it.
I have some census records ,monumental inscriptions and newspaper articles about the family.
My knowledge is through research as I didn't even know they existed until I began my family history.
I live in Canada and I do not speak Welsh. I have been using a Welsh translation site on the internet to read the Welsh documents I have found and can more or less get the gist of them that way.
Mary Jane married a Presbyterian minister Thomas Griffith Owen from Montgomeryshire . They moved to Liverpool and had 2 children. She is still in Liverpool on the 1911 census.
I'm sending you a pm
lilyj
Ps Using the translation site, am I right in thinking that Llwyn Onn means Ash Grove?
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lilyJ
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Just to add: we may be related through Margaret and Barbara Robert's parents.
I got it wrong in the pm I sent to you
lilyj
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Llwyn Onn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Lily
I have found William Richard (born c1795) living at 'Rehoboth', Corris 1841, wife Mary and children Richard, Howel and Mary. In 1851, William was a widower living at 'Chapel House', Corris with his daughter Mary. It is interesting to see that William was born in Mallwyd (i.e. Dinas Mawddwy area)!
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