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Topic: james male (Read 600 times)
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Tati
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So my theory is that this is them:
1841
HO107/295/16 46 34
Melcombe Regis
George Male, 25, Fruiterer
Mary, 23
Samuel, 6
Georgeana, 4
William, 2
Henry, 3 months
Mary Russel, 25
All born in county
From Jean's site above: burial 12 Dec 1848 George MALE Age 38 (Abode - Weymouth) - in which case George's age on census should have been 30 though  And George can't be James' father.
1851
HO107/1857 343 5
Weymouth, Dorset
7 High Street
Mary Ann Male, head, wid, 35, Laundress, b. Weym
Samuel, son, 16, General Dealer Grocer, b. do.
Georgina, dau, 14, scholar, b. Melcombe Regis
William, son, 11, scholar, b. do.
Henry, son, 9, scholar, b. do.
Harriet, dau, 7, scholar, b. do.
Martin?, son, 6, scholar, b. do. (Maybe this should be Abram?)
Marriage Dec 1859 Weymouth 5a 703
Mary Ann Male - James Davis
1861
RG9/1349 23 39
Weymouth, Dorset
87 High Street
Mary A Davis, head, mar, 45, Able Seaman's wife, b. Dorset Winfrith
William Male, U Son, unm, 22, Naval Pensioner, b. do.
Tamson Male, stepdau, unm, 19, b. do.
Abram Male, stepson, 17, Mariner R N, b. do.
Elizabeth Davis, dau, 14, Domestic servant, b. do.
James Male, stepson, 10, scholar, b. do.
In fact the relationships seem to be to the absent head of household instead of to Mary!
1871
RG10/2005 72 34
Portland, Dorset
Castletown
Edmund S Hounsell, head, 31, Trinity Pilot, b. Langton
Tamson, wife, 28, b. Weymouth
(+ 4 Hounsell children)
James Male, brother in law, 19, b. Weymouth
I know you're not convinced this James is yours but it matches both the 1901 and 1891 census information 
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"My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness" Desire and hunger is the fire I breathe Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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SWIPPYDO
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right have gone through paper work i have.if i start with my grandad born 1898 james, his father showing on 1901 census was born in 1875 his name was james.
james born in 1875 on 1881 census his father is james born 1842-43 the ages on census run proper. but james born 43 is not on 61-71-91 as i can find but he could of been at sea.
then we have james born 1851, he is not on 81 but is on 61-71-91-01 but he is not the right age to be father of james born in 1875 so from what i have it looks as though james born in 43 is the one, unless there was a mistake . i am lost completely now and i still dont know where he came from have been through parish records for most of dorset they only show on portland a couple of times but it dosent help
thank you
swippydo 
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Tati
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I believe the key question is : Where is your James born 1875 on the 1891census if he's not the one with dad James born ca. 1850? Where are all his siblings?
I really believe you should search for the whole family group instead of concentrating on one individual's birth year
If you think there are 2 familes then surely they should appear simultaneously in a same census? Well, they don't! Also, we should be able to find similar birth registrations? Well, there's only one Robert Male registered ca. 1877 Southampton (his middle name is Hounsell by the way), only one William E(rnest) registered ca. 1879 Weymouth, only one George in 1881 and only one James Arthur ca. 1875
Let's see
1881:
RG11/2107 58 8
Portland, Dorset
James A Male, head, 38, Mariner, b. Weymouth
Mary A, wife, 26, b. Portland
James A, son, 6, scholar, b. do.
Robert A, son, 4, b. Hants Southampton
William E, son, 1, b. Portland
George, son, 2 months, b. do.
1891
RG12/1649 35 26
Portland Dorset
60 Mallams
James A Male, head, 39, Mariner, b. Weymouth
Mary A, wife, 36, b. Portland
James A, son, 16, General Labourer
Robert H, son, 14, Errand Boy, b. Hants Southampton
William E, son, 11, scholar, b. Portland
George, son, 10, scholar, b. do.
Harry, son, 8, scholar, b. do.
Abslom E, son, 6, scholar, b. do.
Herbert G, son, 5, scholar, b. do.
Arthur G, son, 2, b. do.
Miria, dau, 1 mo, b. do.
1901
RG13/1996 32 14
Portland, Dorset
13 Mallams
James A Male, head, 50, Mariner, b. Weymouth
Mary A, wife, 46, b. Portland
Robert H, son, 24, Mariner, b. Southampton
William R, son, 21, Carman Railway, b. Portland
Harry, son, 18, Mason's Labourer, b. do.
Edwin A, son, 16, Fireman, b. do.
Herbert G, son, 14, Mason's Labourer, b. do.
Arthur G, son, 11, b. do.
Lillian M, dau, 8, b. do.
Marrion K, dau, 5, b. do.
Can you see this is very obviously the same family?
So in 1901 his birth year is ca. 1850, in 1891 as well. I don't think there's any particiular reason to trust the 1881 census more than the other ones. Having said that, I think you'll need a few key certs (James 1875's births, James sr's marriage to Mary Ann)
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"My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness" Desire and hunger is the fire I breathe Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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SWIPPYDO
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thank you for having a look . in 1898 there were two james male born one died that left the one whose father was born in 1875 , the surviving james born in 1898 was my grandad i have been told
swppydo
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AMBLY
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Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Re: james male
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 08 December 07 00:15 GMT (UK) » |
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Hi Swippydoo 
I just want to add my tuppence worth....
Having independantly followed the same trails last night in anticipation of your reply, I 100% agree with Tati.....
Leaving aside just for now the James in 1851 with spinster Amelia HORNE and the MALE/DAVIS households 1841, 51 and 61......
I don't think there can be any doubt whatsoever that the James A MALE b abt 1851/52 Weymouth 1891 and 1901 is the same man with his age incorrect in the 1881. The names & ages and POB of wife and children 1881-1901 all fit perfectly (Absolum E age 6 in 1891, incidently is registered as Absolum Edwin, and is surely the Edwin A listed in 1901 age 16).
I also think there is little doubt that the James A MALE in 1871 in the HOUNSELL household is the same man as above, despite future wife Mary Ann (probably the sister of Edward?) not being in the same house that Census night. And that he, as James Arthur MALE did marry Mary Ann HOUNSELL in 1873 (though the certificate would be needed to confirm this marriage).
It is important to note - the information you are seeing in these Census - has been written there by the Enumerator, who is copying the information from an individual "Household Schedule". That Schedule, if the householder was literate, may be written in the householder's own hand and the enumerator can easily misread - or simply make a mistake in transferring the information. Hence James A MALE has been enumerated as 38 in 1881, rather than 28 and his son Robert Hounsell MALE has been enumerated as Robert A in 1881 rather than Robert H. Apart from that, it's all rather hand-in-glove!
in 1898 there were two james male born one died that left the one whose father was born in 1875 , the surviving james born in 1898 was my grandad
It is very important to keep track of and consider the presence or not of the middle names . There were 2 registered Weymouth 1898 as you say - 1) James MALE and 2) James Albert MALE. And a death in 1905 Weymouth of a James MALE age 7. Both then, should be on the 1901 Census and are likely these ones:
1) 45 High Street , Portland, Dorset:
Ref: RG13 / Piece: 1996 / Folio: 11 / Pg 13
Head: James A MALE 26, Able Seaman b Portland
Wife: Charlotte MALE 24, b Portland
Son: James A MALE 3, b Portland
Dau: Nelly MALE 1, b Portland
Boarder: Walter MALE 20, Stone Quarryman, b Bridport.
2) 69 + 70 Alma Terrace, Portland, Dorset
Ref: RG13 / Piece: 1997 / Folio: 73 / pg 32
Head: Arthur MALE 54, Warden of Portland Prison, b Weymouth
Wife Harriet MALE 48,
Son: Joseph MALE 26,
Dau: Harriet MALE 17,
Son: Arthur MALE 15,
Dau: May MALE 12,
Dau: Blanch MALE 9,
Dau: Eva MALE 7,
Son: James MALE 3,
We can only assume the 1905 death is the son of Arthur & Harriet........ But you would have to be sure!
So, the first question for me is:
The James MALE who is your Grandad b 1898 - you've not yet mentioned he ever had a middle name.......
When he married - what was his full name stated on the certificate? Was it James or James Albert? or something else? Who did he say was his father (full name) and his father's occupation, who were the witness' and what address did he marry from? When he died, what was his full name stated as and how old was he?
If he is married as James Albert born abt 1898, son of James Arthur, Mariner - then my next 2 questions are:
1) Who is the Walter MALE on the 1901 Census as a Boarder?
2) When James Arthur MALE b abt 1875 Wemouth married Charlotte Theresa S GARLAND in 1896, what did that marriage cert say regarding his father, father's occupation, what address did he marry from and who were the witness.
You may already have this information?
This is very intriguing topic and we really want to help you all we can! I at least (you too Tati?  ) am champing at the bit, sensing 'greater' intrigue (especially with that MALE/DAVIS house) and have all sorts of things on the tips of the tounge to proffer, but we need to clear up the first hurdle "if's" (in our minds) first!
Cheers 
AMBLY
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SWIPPYDO
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Re: james male
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 08 December 07 11:10 GMT (UK) » |
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well thanks again yes this is intriging, it is a real knot. anyway answers
james born in 1898 was james albert
do not know who william was the boarder at all
i was in the first off doing this research convinced that james born 1851 was my gr,gr grandad but then when looking at dates etc began to doubt. anyway am going to spend the day looking for more info to try and sort this out, as without knowing which one holds the title of my gr,gr grandad i am stuck then maybe i can move on. thanks for all your help it is really appriciated
swippydo
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SWIPPYDO
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Re: james male
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 08 December 07 12:14 GMT (UK) » |
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james born 1875 died in 1925 aged 50
james born in 1851 died in 1920 aged 69
swppydo
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SWIPPYDO
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Re: james male
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 08 December 07 12:56 GMT (UK) » |
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right have been going through births,marriages,deaths
james 1843
no birth can find
no death can find
marriage found
james 1851
found birth
found death
no marriage
more confusing
swippydo
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SWIPPYDO
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Re: james male
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 08 December 07 22:57 GMT (UK) » |
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latest at 10-42 pm sat. have spent nearly all day on this. i am begining to see why you belive its james 51/52 but the thing i dont get who is james dad then as george had died, then like you say it reads asthough james is the stepson of mary when head is away at sea.
the james who was borm 1898 then died is arthurs son not james of 1875.
i also found out i am related to the hounsells so perhaps this is where that comes in if mary a was hounsell. also castletown was a important part of the male generations life as they went fishing from there so that fits. but i still havent found any marriage for james 1851/52 also no death/birth for james 1843 have been on melcombe regis records gone through them so many times today also portland ones, no other info found. thanks for reading and helping
swippydo
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JeanLillian
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Hi Swipydo.
have been folowing with interest, i have also looked thru all the sites,
Try posting your request on www.dorset-ancestors.com they might be able to look up some records. also www.hounsell.com
a lot of Hounsell's out there,
Good luck and happy Xmas
Jean
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WILTSHIRE , Dowdell, Down, Blake Shergold,Fowyle, whale, Terry
DORSET , Hounsell, Lacey Long, Toms, Masters, Fancy, Wicks/Weeks
Diment, Trevett, Sprake, Symes, Vincent
SHROPSHIRE Hughes.
STAFFORDSHIRE Wilkes, Acton, Bannister, Harrison.
GLOUCESTERSHIRE Symonds, Reynolds
WARWICKSHIRE Symonds Wilkes
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE Andrews
OXFORD Reeve, Eggleston
SCOTLAND Tongue
ESSEX Tunbridge
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Dave Francis
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Cornelius Fisk Goodwin (1880-1961)
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Hmmm. Nobody has mentioned the baptism of a James Arthur Male, son of George and Mary Ann Male, on 17 January 1866 in Alverstoke, Hampshire. [Source: IGI] I realise that this looks like the wrong year and location, but I'm wondering whether James was baptised (as a young adult) as a precondition of his employment. Is it worth asking someone to check the original entry to see if it yields any more info? The registers appear to be held at the Portsmouth City Records office.
http://www.stmarysalv.free-online.co.uk/history.htm
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSurnames include: FRANCIS in Glamorgan / LANWORN in Monmouth / BLACKMAN, RUSSELL in Sussex / KEARSEY, BARLTROP in Essex / TOOKEY in Leicestershire / LASHMORE in London and Kent / GOODWIN, PASQUE, ATTOE, FISK, QUINTON, RUFFLES, CULLINGFORD and others in Suffolk / MAYOSS anywhere anytime! / GILMORE in Belfast |
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SWIPPYDO
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thanks for replys i have just started another day of looking i joined another site in weymouth last night simalar to this one they may be able to help. this is a hard one it has alot of avenues
swippydo
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SWIPPYDO
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right with replys today i will check the links sent be back later
swippydo
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AMBLY
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Hi SWIPPYDO
If you can accept (and prove with strategic certificates of marriage and birth) that the James born 1851/1852 is the one on the Census 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 found above and that he married Mary Ann HOUNSELL.....
Then....It seems almost certain that the following conjecture will prove to be true:
1) He is the same young man found on the 1861 with his mother Mary A DAVIS and the relationships stated on that Census are to the absent Head of the House. ie: The MALE children are stepchildren to the absent Head (and therefore likely biological children to the absent Head's wife) and that the single DAVIS child in the house is the biological child of the abesent head (and therefore the stepchild of the wife, Mary A).
2) His mother Mary A was first married to George MALE the fruiter. That is them on the 1841, and opn 1851 (sans deceased George) - the unusually named daughter Tamson is an important glue clue with her baptism and later, marriage).
3) That you have discovered relationship to the HOUSNELL's adds much weight. And also strenghens the probability that 2 sibling MALEs (James 1851/52 and his sister Tamson) both married HOUNSELLS (who also may be siblings!) The 1871 Census relationship of James A MALE to Edward HOUNSELL is correct: he is indeed Edward's brother-in-Law, because Edward married his sister Tamson. And likely Edward was to become his 'double' brother- in-Law if you like, because did James later married Edward's sister (but she could be a cousin) Mary Ann HOUNSELL?
So..... it would appear George MALE the Fruiter died sometime between 1841 and 1851 - the death referred to by Tati in 1848 is most likely him (certificate requitred to hopefully prove) Then his widow Mary apparently has a child born sometime between 1848 and 1852 : James Arthur MALE.
If he was illigitimate - as it increasingly seems - his marriage cert to Mary Ann HOUNSELL may not show the name of a father - but that certificate needs to be obtained to see.
Regardless of who his bilogical father may have been (and being prepared for the possibility you may never discover his name) James Arthur MALE b 1851/1852 should be registered with the legal name of his mother at the time of his birth - ie: MALE.
It seems probable his mother, as widow Mary A MALE did marry James DAVIS in 1859 (likely marriage ref. was quoted earlier in thread)
In 1851, it also seems likely this James DAVIS was the one following - with a wife and children - notably daughter Elizabeth age 3 - perfect match for the Elizabeth DAVIS 14, probable stepdaughter to Mary A DAVIS on the 1861:--
Township of Weymouth (probably in Wyke Regis area) , Dorset
Ref: HO107/ Piece: 1857 / Folio: 372 / pg 9
Address: 6 East Row
Head: James DAVIS 35, Mariner, b Broadway Dorset
Wife: Mary 33, b Weymouth
Son: Richard 10, errand boy, b Weymouth
Son: Thomas 6, Scholar, b Weymouth
Dau: Elizabeth 3, b Weymouth
cheers
AMBLY
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